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Questions & Answers   |   Subjects

 

Why won't 9 plates have good production, provided that the voltage will be 1.73 to 1.8 V? According to the calculator the more the plates in a stack, the bigger is LPM...? So 7 plates will make 2.4 V. isn't it a lot, and isn't it causing excessive heat? and how long can it work without overheating... Because about the heat... as far as i know, (from you and your web-site) there must Not be excessive heat, or even any heat... so... only necessary for increasing the conductivity of the water, therefore LPM, is presence of enough electrolyte, right?
 
I have a cell with 3 stacks by 7 plates - 5.7x2.4", it works fine, but i want to make a new cell... Is it 20x20 cm a good decision? And about gasket - is 3 mm thickness fine, (because the gasket of my existing cell is 2.7 mm but i think it must be a bit thick)?
I'm a bit confused about the new cell... and sorry for that so much questions...


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Another question for you, can you explain about back pressure and having your generator on angle. I see one of the videos on you tube says it the way to go but doesn't explain why. And also are thicker stainless steel better for producing gas or not.
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Could you please tell, is there a difference in inverters of 120V 3kW and 220V 3kW, when applying them to hydrogen system. And if there is a difference, could you please specify, what the difference is?
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Do you have some usable information about what is the most efficient spacing between the plates (in mm if you can please)? I ask because there are so many controversial opinions about it. Some version do say that closer than 1 mm is ideal because of electricity flow others say that if it is to close the bubbles hinder each other from detaching and flowing to the top of the cell. To big a spacing asks for much amperage and more electrolyte then there is that idea about leakage vs. dry cell where each water compartment is totally sealed off from the others but that creates a problem of refilling especially if the plates spacing is very small.
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Would higher DC voltage and lower amperage be more HHO effective than lower voltage and higher amperage?
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What is the difference in a Bubbler and a Flashback Arrestor?
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I am trying to find out what the ionization rate for water is and I am not having much luck. Could you possibly help me?
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Do you get a lot of questions?
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I will have to look into Boyce. It amazes me how little I and many know. At 31 yrs. old I feel like a tagged beef cow ready for the butcher. "They" really try to dumb us down. TV?? can't stand it. 
I am currently going to school for electrical/software engineering. I am hoping to bring what already been invented to the masses. Free energy. The N-machine?  Why don't they teach this in schools?
Sorry I'm a little frustrated with society. First things first. Have you made any attempt on the orgon gas? 

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What is the most efficient frequency at which to operate a HHO PWM?
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I have seen your video on www.hho4Free.com with the generator mounted in front of a 1994 GEO Tracker and it was producing a lot of hydrogen gas. I also noticed that you monitor your current Ďthruí a LCD panel digital ammeter on your dash. Very nicely done. I also have a generator installed on my 1992 Ford Laser 1.3 liter with a 30 amp PWM controller. I have a problem on my installation of a similar LCD panel ammeter and I sincerely hope that you could advise me on the exact location and how about of the ammeter installation on the circuit diagram of the generator. I have installed the ammeter with the shunt on the negative side of the generator but with erroneous reading from the panel. It read something like negative (-) 130.0 to (+) 145.0 when I turned the potentiometer from end to end. The PWM was working fine because when I turned the pot I could see the production changing but was not able to monitor the current drawn. I would appreciate it if you could advise or show me a complete circuit diagram or maybe a sketch with PWM controller and ammeter installed. Preferably a LCD panel digital ammeter connection like yours that was seen on the video (able to increase or decrease the reading gradually).
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I have really enjoyed using KOH for electrolyte. Until cold weather has set in, we had not had any issues. I have noticed since winter weather has started that we need to use considerably more KOH to get the amperage up to power. Have you noticed any such thing and what have you done to correct it.
We have also just started to have to get involved with the EFIE O2 sensor enhancers. Have you had any experience with them?
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My cell is configured  as follows: 6'' x 9'' containment vessel. 16  x 5/8'' od x 7- 1/2'' long tubes with 1/4'' od 8'' long  tubes set in the centre placed at 4-1/2'' dia in the vessel. A second set of 9 tubes set at 2-1/2'' dia. A   1-1/4 dia tube connected to the base of the vessel therefore positive with 5/8'' and 1/4'' within the centre of that tube. All the 1/4'' tubes are negative the 5/8'' are positive. The set of 9 tubes are surrounded by a 3'' od tube which is positive. Electrolytes used = bicarb and also potassium hydroxide using the latter, production of hho is aprox 1/2 litre per minute for an input of 15 to 20 amps. Have tried many variations of the Joe cell and found none of them to be any good,
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I would really like to know your thoughts/ experience about the difference between the configuration +NN-NN+ & +-+-+-+- ??
the latter seems to generate more HHO lpm but draws more amps, is that right or whats the story?
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Do more neutral plates equal less heat? If so, is that the only reason for having more plates?
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I built one of the victor hho generators, it is a water filter with ten plates in and they are correctly spaced apart with rubber washers and everything, ive used both lye and baking soda with water, my system is set up P-n-n-N-n-n-P-n-n-N, when i hook up the system and turn it on the wires get hot, but only one of the terminals gets hot whether you hook positive or ground to it, do you know what this could be?? i used a 20 amp fuse and blew it, went to a 30 and havent blew it yet, any suggestions???
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This is the best and most truthful site I have been to, by far!!!!  Everything looks great. I see you have one of your HHO devices on your car with all the dashboard controls. Very nice!!!! Could or would you tell me how much of a gas savings you are getting. I am thinking of making my lawn mower run on Hydrogen," to start with " and was wondering if one of these cells would produce enough Hydrogen to power it. I know you must be very busy and may not be able to get back with me, but thank you for this web site and I will be watching and learning.
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Is there any way to convert the amp/volt ratio on a car battery to power an efficient electrolysis machine off of the battery? 
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Why don't you use PVC?
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I want to buy one of your cells. How much do you charge?
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What do you know about Oxygen sensors?
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Will aluminum tubes work?
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Will frequency make a difference in electrolysis?
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Are you concerned about the insides of your motor rusting?
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Do I need to change my timing?
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What happens if my cell is making too much HHO?
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What can I do about rust in my cell?
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Is there an advantage to using Perforated plates?
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If I keep adding "a little more" electrolyte at a time, how will I know when I reach the exact saturation of the recipe you used? Sounds like a ridiculous question but I find it incredibly frustrating that everything, even as simple as an amount of baking soda to water, is such a National Secret?
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Where did you get your Lid?
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What has been your best cell configuration?
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What can I do to use less gasoline or diesel fuel?
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Can I use AC voltage to make HHO?
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There is no real pressure though in the system right?
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How did you figure out what circuit you needed for your application and how to adjust it in order to not screw up your car?
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I have an 800 watt DC to AC Inverter. Is it possible to connect power to one of these cells with that?
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How do you magnetize the needle?
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Where did you get your O2 Oxygen sensor circuit?
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Could the windshield washer bottle be used as a bubbler with a return to the generator and as a washer reservoir?
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I have brown stuff in my water. Is it coming from the cell?
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My PWM does not change my amps.
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Will your cell run my motor? I have a 4 cylinder.
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How do you expect somebody to build your system without some kind of plans?
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How would wire mesh work? And what about a helix?
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Do you prefer Tubes or Plates?
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Do you use a water catcher?
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Do you weld stainless steel with stainless welding rods?
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What is the purpose of a PWM?
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Can you help me find what is causing the rust in my cell?
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How do I apply the dc to my plates; where do I connect?
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What do you think of this Double Helix cell?
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My cell is producing a lot of Foam. I use a quart of water every 75 miles!
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Is it normal to have steam coming from the cell?
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I have built a cell and a working system but I still have a problem. it is installed on a semi truck but with only 8 to 10 hrs. working, turns out in dense mud difficulting the circulation and slowing down the production. any body have an idea how to resolve this problem?
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How do you add the HHO to the engine? And is this waste of time?
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My question is - are these cells dependable? Do they require a lot of attention?
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My tubes are 0.75cm spaced. can I use AC Inverter?
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Does your cell produce pressure? Will it run my motor?
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Why are you using a joecell?
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I'm sure you or some others have thought of it, but have you tried stainless steel mesh (like window screening for bugs)? I'm sure the accumulative surface area would be more than that of perforated steel. I've also found that a pulsed DC wave form such as you advocate is far superior to straight DC and that some have advocated a frequency of around close to 40Khz for a 12V, 12 cycle pulse, i.e., a train of 12 pulses to 12V then reverse polarity of 12, -12V pulses at 40Khz. Is this anything like what you're doing?
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Do you think amperage plays a much higher role than voltage? Tesla found some very interesting things in his pursuit of "zero-point energy" using HUGE amounts of voltage but very low current. What are your ideas on HIGH voltage, low current sources for electrolysis?
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Will I get more miles per gallon with your system?
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I have a carburetor and no computer. How do I get the gas into the motor?
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I purchased the parts to build a pwm but I'm not sure how to put it together. I've seen lots of different ways on you tube but I'm not sure. would you send me a diagram on how to put it together.
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What is the best way to know when the alternator is being over worked?
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Explain Neutrals!
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What is going on in my cell? I am frustrated.
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How do you attach the cell?
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I am new to Fuel Optimization. My water is mucking up.
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My PWM does not change anything. It is the same amps as straight DC.
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I have a water4gas unit. Getting 20% better mpg. How much HHO is too much?
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I hooked my cell up to my car and it blows my fuse; every time.
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What configuration would you recommend for a big block V8?
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Explain Driving within the limits of the HHO you are producing.
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What can I do if the HHO does not help?
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I am thinking about putting a cell on my Cherokee. Will it accept HHO?
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Does the cell run off of the Battery? How do you keep water from getting into the engine?
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I have a couple questions about the electrolyte. My project is almost put together and I heard that you have to soak your parts overnight in LYE to get the oil residues off from it. Where can I get this LYE? How much do I use? Am I supposed to use the LYE in the finished product as the electrolyte also?
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Two questions, why a 80 breaker if the alternator does not put out 80amps ? And for testing the cell out of the car, can I run it off a cut cord and plug it into a house socket, my battery charger is not that good.
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By luck, I found "crystals of household 100% lye drain opener" 1lb. container. I have a few questions about this stuff for you. On the bottle it says use with cold water only-several times. It says NOT to use with warm water-several times. What is going to happen when the cell heats up to operating temp? I am very concerned with this! Another thing it says is DO NOT USE WITH ALUMINUM OR ON ALUMINUM. I had planned on running the cell electrolyte through a transmission cooler to keep it cool. Is it going to be impossible to run it through the aluminum transmission cooler?
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I have been having trouble finding a good electrolyte that will produce a good quantity of Hydrogen without the brown scum (mud). Do you know what this brown mud actually is? I use about a 1/4 teaspoon of sea salt in the water I've been using and the unit chokes itself off within an hour. Heats up like crazy and I chicken out and shut it off before a meltdown. I was just going to try adding some Sodium Hydroxide to the electrolyte to see how that works for me. 
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Just one question how does the installation of your products affect the warranty of my car?
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Hi I have a question, would having more than one smaller hydrogen generator running say 6-8 AMPS each that work with the accelerator. for instance having say 4 generators under the bonnet and at full throttle all 4 work but at idol only 1 and so on. Cutting power to the unneeded ones. Of course I need to find out when they need to cut in and out, but in theory 4 smaller ones would probably take more AMPS but who drives with there car at full throttle? The idea is to basically get around some cars that can't run a 25 amp generator all the time but if needed can if given the boot. Hopefully eliminating the need to add another generator/alternator. I want to run my car off of 99% HHO because that 1% fuel is needed to lubricate (Well there abouts that would have to be trial and error).
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Can you tell me why u are using a 80 amp breaker if your alternator wont handle 80 amps why are you using it ?
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Once again I'm a bit confused....it figures!

I just went to Tennesse then over to N. Carolina on vacation and arriving back home in Florida last night. I have been steadily using mothballs for about 3 months. I can do the same exact drive. With everything exactly the same. One time I will get 31.5 mpg. The next time I will get 20.9 mpg. The next 24.6. So on and so forth.

It really is frustrating. Yesterday on the first leg of my drive I got 29.5 Mpg for the first 3.8 gallons. We stopped at a store. I filled up the 3.8 gallons and added a mothball. The next stop was about 117 miles later. I don't remember exactly how much I pumped, but I only was getting 20 mpg. I was driving exactly the same. It pisses me off. I have tried to see if Ethanol/ no Ethanol changes it. Pretty much any variable I can think of.

Do you think it might be my EFI System or my O2 sensor? The van is running perfectly. So, I have no idea.
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I purchased 2 pwm 30 a and both have blown capaciter c-2 within 10 min at 13.2 amps. Do you have any suggestions as to why. I wired it with a 50 amp shunt power from the battery to the volts in on the pwm from the load positive to the shunt from the shunt to the cell neg load to the cell and ov to the neg on the battery. works great have control for about 10 min then pop c-2 blows up. thanks for any input here .
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I am from Malysia, just now I am trying to build my one HHO. when I buy from someone on ebay like water4gas in jar. it not produce more HHO. I can't see the output when I take the output from first jar to second jar.. no . HHO buble in second jar. but I see HHO produce in first Jar.a litter until 15 amp still no buble in second jar.

Beouse of this . I create my  own  HHO generator.

I use Hot water stanles steal termos become thier container.
1) the center is Negatif > Neutral> Positif>Negatif for container.( all stanles steal 304)
2) I use Soda baking  (Pure). with 1 tea spoon.
3) when power on the system I see more HHO.. buble in this container.But I see More like Smoke ( what is that it is HHO) The curent is 11Amp. I use Car batery  I bring in to my Home.
4) when I close the top container and try to masure output in seconds jar. I don't see anything Buble come out in second jar when I put the output HHO from first jar to in water in second jar..
 I use tube pneumatik air cable . I see the smoke come out from the tube  pneumatik air cable but when i insert the output cable to in water at second jar I don see any buble com out.  Why this happen?.
5) after that I take out the tube from water ( second jar) and i see the smoke come out from the tube.

I do this experiment in my toilet becouse I dont have space in my home.

from that I want to try make a welding gas. I close the toilet and take the tube come out from the
toilet/and close the tilet door and i  still see smoke at output tube at my hand . I take the liter  and I fire it.?  do you know what happen.?

I am very shock. after I turn on the fire from liter to ouput tube have a smoke .. In 1 second I hear sound like BOM..when I open the toilet . I see the container is explode. my meter amp is damege. my toilet door is damage in inside toilet.

very power full BOM hidrogen.
why this happen ? How to mesure correct HHO?

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So with tubes you canít do it because the surface area changes and each different tube would receive different amounts of amperage? Why do you prefer tube to plate cells? Less magnetic alignment work? Whats the point of a DC inverter if your converting DC > AC > DC? Does this Bob Boyce method of sealing the different waterways, when done correctly, actually produce 6x the HHO?

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I'm out in the California Lancaster area and gas here is $4.60.

Ozzie Freedom is down the hill in Tujunga and has a Saturday morning car get together with working water4gas electrolysors installed. I've been taking notes and lots of research.  I'll be contacting you again.  I like your design and wondering what you know about the Pulse Generator Stanley Meyer used and it's efficiency.

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I see on your website under Sodium Hydroxide your claim of 30% more HHO than baking soda; is that with the same energy draw? I mean if I'm feeding my cell 20 amps with BS, will I get 30% more still feeding 20 amps? Is this what you're using; it's kind of a nasty liquid so I kind of cringe at the though of using it plus I have a little concern about Sodium Hydroxide getting into my intake system and corroding parts.

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I'm in Vermont, am a plumber, and like the idea of running a car on water. I built a coupla electrode cells, and kept melting 'em down / shorting out (too much powder) etc, so I am doing a plate system soon. and or a joe cell. Where did you get the "cap" for your cell? I just got a MAP sensor, getting a scanjet, got a o2 sensor fooler coming etc. From ebay. I am very close to buying an H2O 2000 water torch, a propane kit, and a 220 volt inverter from 12 volt dc, and build a car that uses totally water. I KNOW it will work, it has to, that torch gives from 0 - like 1200 litres a minute on demand. (from what I see) From the cars I see online, that's pretty much what they are running. The torch is almost 7 thousand, but I spend that a year in gasoline between me and my wife. I figger if I wait for big business - ford gmc etc to "come out with one" while "corporate" figgers out how much to stuff it up you know where for a price, I could be running a car for free in a year, on water. What do you think??? swap emails?
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Hi I been working hard on my system you have been a lot of help ,I'm wondering there is a sight that was saying that if to much HHO is put in a system that you would have to every two months have to bore you engine out or are they just washed up ! Because my system will be a big one ,or are there things that can be done to prevent the rusting ,see I do not run my system throw a bubbler ,for I believe the engine like a little moister, my fire suppressor is one of the best you can make with one front and at the intake ! just want to get your take on this!

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Hey just updating On a few things I've found and am working on.
My current vehicle has 4 O2 sensors, right bank, left bank, pre and post converter.

Since installing my set up, Like most people constantly altering or changing. I threw the vehicle on a live data-link analyzer to see exactly whats going on in the computer and what it looks at, while driving with the unit on and off.

In my application the pre and post are merely code indicators for potential problems or catalytic converter problems.
The right and left bank O2 sensors are what determines my fuel on my narrow band sensors.
I wasn't sure if the computer was looking at the high and the low then compensating, But it appears the computer looks at cross counts on the high and low range 0-1V and determines the fuel based not only on the voltage variation but the amount of high lows (crosscounts) within a given timeframe. This a 1997 Gm product.

With and without the O2 sensor faked out the cross count was good and consistant.
The throttle body positioner also was the same. The differance was on the injector duration.
With the H generator off, the computer was reading 9 -10 milliseconds for duration (open) on the injectors. Within about a second or 2 of kicking it on the duration drops immediately to 5-6 milliseconds and stays there.
I tested it probably 10 times in cruise control at multiple differant speeds, as soon as the generator is off the the milliseconds of duration the injectors stay open immediately goes to 9-10.
Its almost instantaneous when the computer sees it and adjusts accordingly.
What appears to be happening is, the motor runs cooler according to the O2 sensors which means a rich application, so it in turns backs of the injectors for a leaner hotter blend.

I've ran several scenerios, multiple speeds and differant HHO production, with pretty much all being the same.
I also looked at trying to use the throttle position controller with my pot switch on the PWM so everything would be automatic, but it has a 0-5v range, thats not an issue. The issue is rarely is the voltage above 1.5 and calibrating at that voltage might be a problem if the electrolyte concentrates through mineral accumulation. What might be fine on a 1.5v signal at calibration could be lead to overamping of the unit as it runs longer and the TDS increases.

So in a nutshell I took off everything except the aluminum foil around the O2 sensor to fake out the computer because it was already seeing a richer burn and compensating for it.
Reason being......my mileage went from 16 to 21, and nothing else I do seems to make a differance,
I also ran a cooler thermostat than normal I went from a 185 to 165.
So once I switch that out and run some more test I'll give you an update on my progress.


Feel free to Forward this to madscientist, it might be useful for his COSM, or to any of your friends on your website.

Answer: I will forward to madscientist. It is right up his alley. I recognized the terminology as I read your message. However it is too techy for most people. :)
 



I finally got my pwm and am in the process of installation but I have a doubt that i thought you might be able to clarify. Regarding the negative terminal that goes into the PWM from the vehicle ground, are there any negative effects that you know of from connecting that negative lead the the vehicle common ground rather than straight to the battery's negative pole?? will there be any adverse effects to my vehicle if i don't connect it straight to the battery's negative pole?
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Why won't 9 plates have good production, provided that the voltage will be 1.73 to 1.8 V? According to the calculator the more the plates in a stack, the bigger is LPM...? So 7 plates will make 2.4 V. isn't it a lot, and isn't it causing excessive heat? and how long can it work without overheating... Because about the heat... as far as i know, (from you and your web-site) there must Not be excessive heat, or even any heat... so... only necessary for increasing the conductivity of the water, therefore LPM, is presence of enough electrolyte, right?

 

9 plates will make more HHO than 7 plates, per amp. The problem is getting the 9 plate to pass the amperage. It will take loads of electrolyte. Go ahead, try it, and find out for yourself. Find out that it won't accept good amperage until the water heats up. Find out that it takes FOREVER for the water to heat.
 
The Active Surface area of the electrode plate is going to determine how much or how little amperage should be used for HHO production. The larger that area is, the more amperage you can use -- without harming the metal. 20 x 20 cm can handle about 33.5 amps.
 
The Operating Time of a cell stack, decreases as heat increases. So it will be important for you to control the heat as much as possible - especially if you take long trips. The Plate Voltage Drop is a major factor. The electrolysis process creates heat; it does so because of electron flow. Plate voltage is the electrical pressure; the lower that pressure is, the harder it will be to create amperage flow. The amount of amperage will be determined by the Resistance of the water. Your electrolyte mix changes the resistance of the water. So does heat. 9 plates lowers the voltage drop across the plates, thus lowers the amount of electrical pressure. If there is not much pressure, there will not be much amperage crossing the water. So you will need to keep adding more electrolyte until you get the amount of amperage you want. That is what is going to determine the amount of HHO gas being made.
 
The 3 mm gasket is going to get compressed when the bolts are tightened. It will work. The gap between the plates, created by the thickness of the gasket, causes a change in the resistance of the water crossing. It does so by making the water crossing longer or shorter. Longer distances will need higher voltage pressure - or lower resistance in the water. Either one will have a effect on the amperage - which will have an effect on the heat. My first cell was a Tube Cell. The tubes were 1 inch, 2 in., 3 in., 4 in; one inside the other. It produced good amounts of HHO when I cranked up the amperage. Did not use much electrolyte. It got hot soon. I then installed tubes between each of the existing tubes; 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4 inches. It produced more HHO using less amperage. It required using more electrolyte. It operated longer without getting hot. I also added tubes between each of these tubes, using 0.25 inch variances. I used 9 tubes. 1.5, 1.75, 2., 2.25, 2.5, 2.75, 3, 3.25, 3.5, inches. It took a lot of electrolyte to get the thing to produce amperage. It operated cool, but took a long time to produce 6 amps. It was great for long trips, but did not make much hho on short trips. It just took too long to warm up. Thru my experimenting, I learned that you can make just as much HHO using 3 plates, as you can using 9 plates; the difference is it just takes more amperage using fewer plates. And operating time decreases, the fewer plates you use, and increases the more plates you use. I found that using 7 plates provided the best all around performance.

 

 
Another question for you, can you explain about back pressure and having your generator on angle. I see one of the videos on you tube says it the way to go but dosen't explain why. And also are thicker stainless steel better for producing gas or not.
 
Back pressure would be making it harder for the gases to get out of the cell, out of the bubbler or making it harder to get into the engine. It puts the vessel under pressure. For example, like when you squeeze a garden hose, it causes the water to back up inside the hose, and it sprays the water farther --- under pressure. The same sort of thing can happen with the H and O gases if the holes in the plates are not large enough to allow the gases to escape unrestricted. Most Cells have some back pressure built in, but it is not realized. A typical Dry Cell has a hole in the top chamber area of each plate gasket. That hole is there for the gases to escape. If there is any space between the top of the hole, and the top of the inside of the gasket, it will create a pocket for gases to accumulate in. They accumulate there because they have no place to go. As they accumulate, they naturally push the water down; by displacing it. Pushing the water down, forces water off of the very top of the plates. The more pressure there is, the more the water level gets lowered. It will do this until the water level is lowered enough for the gases to get out through the hole. I hope you can visualize that happening. Because once the gases have escaped, the water level comes back up and the process starts over. It creates a recognizable "Pulsing" of the gas. Almost every Dry Cell on the market does it. The worst I have seen is the one hole cell by Hydro Club USA http://hydroclubusa.com/ . They stager the hole, every other plate, up or down. Terrible concept, unless your trying to create a water heater. My opinion.
 
So what does having your generator on an angle do? Well, for one, it causes back pressure on the higher plates. It does so because the water level --- is not level so to speak. Try to imagine yourself inside the water compartments, and look around at what is going on. That is how you answer questions like this. It is reasonable to say that tipping the cell will allow bubbles to get off of the plates easier. The fact is, they are going to come off anyway; regardless. Gravity takes care of that. The electrolyte causes the water to be slick. If you get it on your fingers, it is hard to wash it off; so tipping a cell is not going to help the cell produce more bubbles. The amperage handles that. The chemical process of ion attraction is what makes the gases on the plate surfaces. You could make the water look like it is boiling the gases off, and not make one more bubble by tipping it. Because the extra you may make on some plates is displaced by that you fail to make on other plates - because they are not covered with as much water. Plus, a lower water level, forces amperage to travel across a smaller surface area, which could introduce unnecessary heat. My opinion.
 
Is thicker stainless steel better for producing gas or not? Stainless steel is not one of the good conductors of electricity, but it is slightly better than Titanium; both are high in resisting electron flow. The larger the plate is, the more resistance there is because the electron has farther to travel across it. Thickness does play a minor part, because it equates to "distance" of travel. It is so minor, that I would not be concerned ---- I say that because we adjust our electrolyte mix to compensate; lower the resistance. What thicker plates really do is extend the life of the plates. Electron bombardment wears away the surface on the positive side of the plates. Over time the plates get thinner. So it is advantageous to have thicker plates. Also, thicker plates are harder to bend. We want the plates to stay perfectly aligned, parallel, with even spacing all around. If a plate gets bent, it throws off the alignment, and allows electron flow to be the greatest -- at the shortest crossing in the water, and that introduces heat to the area of plate surface, closest to the crossing in the water. My opinion.

 

 
Could you please tell, is there a difference in inverters of 120V 3kW and 220V 3kW, when applying them to hydrogen system. And if there is a difference, could you please specify, what the difference is?

 
The difference between 120 volts and 220 volts, is the electrical pressure; higher voltage creates more pressure. Electrical Pressure is measured in Watts of Power. 
 
Volts x Amps = Watts
120v x 5 Amps = 600 Watts
220v x 5 Amps = 1100 Watts (more powerful than 120v x 5 amps = 600 watts)
 
 
When applying voltage for use in an Electrolysis HHO Generator, we strive to keep the Plate voltage at or close to 2 volts. Lower voltage increases the Operating Time for producing HHO; it also reduces the amount of HHO generated. Higher than 2 volts reduces Operating Time for HHO production, and increases HHO production. So, Voltage becomes a Heat factor that must be considered. We want our Generators to operate efficient so that the plates do not get hot. To do this, we keep the voltage at, or close to, 2 volts (DC).
 
If a 12 volt battery is the power source, we can reduce the voltage to the plates by adding Neutral plates between positive and negative. 
 
+  -  = 12 volts between the plates.
+ n - = 6 volts between the plates
+ n n - = 4 volts between the plates
+ n n n - = 3 volts between the plates
+ n n n n - =  2.4 volts between the plates
+ n n n n n - = 2 volts between the plates  
 
In the last configuration, above, it took 5 neutral plates to reduce the 12 volts to 2 volts between each set of plates. This configuration, + n n n n n - , consists of 7 plates in Series. Amperage that passes from negative to positive, passes through each set of plates. That same amperage makes HHO between each set of plates. The electrical pressure is 2 volts between each set of plates. The number of neutral plates is what is reducing the voltage. The amount of amperage passing thru, is what is creating the HHO. It is also what is creating the Heat.
 
Faraday tells us that 1 amp will make 10.44 ML of HHO between a set of positive and negative electrode plates ( + - )
He also tells us that 1.24 volts is the least amount to use (when using battery acid as the electrolyte). Higher voltage produces heat.
KOH minimum is 1.97 volts; NaOH minimum is 1.69 volts. Because there are so many variances, I suggest using 2 volts as the established plate voltage; a good goal to reach for. Your Generator will operate for long periods without overheating.
 
So, what does all of this information do to answer your question?
It tells us that a 220 volt Inverter will need twice as many electrode plates -- in series -- as a 110 volt Inverter.
It also tells us that the 220 volt Inverter will be capable of producing twice as much HHO.
If you want to produce a lot of HHO, 120 volts can do it. But if you want to produce even more 220 volts will do it. And, 330v, and 440v.
 
The problem with using Inverters:
Inverters take DC voltage and change it to AC voltage. That requires amperage.
In the picture below, an Alternator is supplying 13.5 vdc, at 88.89 amps (1200 watts) to an Inverter.
The Inverter is changing that to 120 volts rated at 1200 watts, that can handle a load up to 10 amps.
 
 
 
120 volts, would need 61 plates in series to have plate voltage at 2 volts. It will need 10 amps to produce 1200 Watts and 6.264 LPM
 
A 12 volt generator would need 10 sets of 7 plates in series, each drawing 10 amps (100 amps total), to produce 1200 watts and 6.264 LPM
 
A 220 volt generator would need 111 plates in series at 2 volts, and 5.455 amps to produce 1200 watts and 6.264 LPM
 
Have I totally confused you yet?
 
Bottom line is, it takes power to make HHO. And it takes power to make voltage. If you use an Inverter on your 12 volt power system, it is going to draw more power from your alternator than you thought it would. The same can be said for DC to DC Converters. In the long run, from the alternators view, I think it is best to just work with the power source you have.
Here is my web page on Inverters http://www.hho4free.com/inverters.htm
 


 


 

Spacing
Do you have some usable information about what is the most efficient spacing between the plates (in mm if you can please)? I ask because there are so many controversial opinions about it. Some version do say that closer than 1 mm is ideal because of electricity flow others say that if it is to close the bubbles hinder each other from detaching and flowing to the top of the cell. To big a spacing asks for much amperage and more electrolyte then there is that idea about leakage vs. dry cell where each water compartment is totally sealed off from the others but that creates a problem of refilling especially if the plates spacing is very small.
 
As for plate spacing, I use 0.060 inches, or about 0.1524 centimeters. That is about as close as possible and still get good bubble flow. Closer spacing needs less electrolyte. It does not produce more gas or less gas; per say. Gas production is caused by power (volts x amperage). Since water does not conduct electricity without adding electrolytes or minerals, we will have to add electrolyte or minerals no matter what the spacing is. Close spacing makes our cells more compact. Sometimes spacing comes about by what we have to use as an insulator to separate the plates. Our gaskets for instance. Gaskets need to be strong and pliable enough to endure the process of taking the cell apart and putting it back together. I would not use more than 0.654 cm.
 
As for Leaking current, dry cell vs. wet cell. I believe the experts have it wrong. True, electrons travel through the water....to get to the plates. Once there, they do travel around the plates, after they hit the plate surface; not before. I say that because the metal plates have far less resistance than the electrolyte water. Electrons take the path of less resistance. The plates are drawing them, attracting them. It is ludicrous to think the electrons will bypass the metal, via the surrounding water. Attraction keeps that from happening. What can be a factor is spacing tolerance. If any part of the plate is slightly closer to the next plate, electrical current will pile up at that point. It is like a crowd of people trying to cross a narrow bridge. They can cross easier, and faster, if the bridge is wide enough to carry the traffic unrestricted. With that in mind, now you can see the importance of smoothing the edges of the plates. Any sharp edges should be removed. That will keep the electrons from congregating along the ends of the plates. The ends are also surface area, so they can help with HHO production, but there is a thin dividing line between the more positive side and more negative side. So not much production takes place there. If the water conducts better than the metal plates, then I will agree with the experts; but that is not the case. Keep the plates aligned as perfect as possible; that is the trick to equal gas production. Perforated plates; those with holes, produce less gas simply because they have less surface area; period. That is about all I can say about them. As for Sanding plates, I don't agree with it. I think sanding removes the protective oxide layer. It is a waste of time to pickle the metal if the pickling is going to be removed. Sanding causes peaks and valleys in the surface. That means that some areas of the surface are going to be closer to the next plate, than other areas. Electrons will back up; in my opinion. True, sanding creates more surface area, slightly, but it crowds the bridge crossing, and removes the oxide protection. I prefer not to do that. The dry cell, in my opinion, solved the problem of containment. Wet cells needed a container to hold the water. Dry cell construction creates its own containment of the water. That makes them easier to construct. However, it is also a down fall for winter conditions. Water has no place to go when the cell freezes. Gaskets get ruptured.  Bob Boyce designs, dry cells, seal the water from the edges, but electrons still travel around those edges. They do not travel through the metal. They travel around the surface, taking the least resistant route. Water is not the least resistant rout; plate surface is.

 

 


Would higher DC voltage and lower amperage be more HHO effective than lower voltage and higher amperage?

It is a combination of electrical pressure (voltage) and electrical current (amperage) that produces the HHO. The two combined create an energy that is measured in Watts. It is the Watts that powers the production. Volts x Amps = Watts

Low volts High amperage   12v x 10 amps = 120 watts
High volts Low amperage  120v x 1 amp = 120 watts
They produce the same results

What you have to engineer your Cell around is the voltage source you plan on using. If you use High volts, you will need enough Neutral plates to lower the voltage between plates to 2 to 3 volts per cell.
It will take a lot more plates to accomplish it. However, each plate you add increases the HHO potential.

You have a 12 volt system on your automobile. It produces 13.5 to 14.5 volts from the alternator. If you want to use high voltage, the alternator is going to have to supply the power to a device that can create the higher voltage. Ultimately, you are at the mercy of the alternator. The harder it works, the more energy it takes for the engine to turn it. That drag lowers the natural fuel efficiency. It is your objective to keep that drag low enough to allow gains from the HHO you produce, without shortening the life of your alternator.

So, it is your choice. Higher voltage is going to be more expensive. The Cell will be larger and more (different) electrical parts will be needed.

 


 

What is the difference in a Bubbler and a Flashback Arrestor?

Good Question; one that is often misunderstood. The purpose of a Bubbler is to trap foam and keep it from getting into your engine. Foam is made up of tiny bubbles of gas surrounded by a thin membrane of water and its electrolyte content. The electrolytes we use are mostly caustic; they are capable of dissolving aluminum. Some of them are porous; they are capable of stopping up valves and hoses. So the Bubbler is used to give foam a space to dissipate, and in some cases collect the electrolyte and water before they get into the engine.

A Flashback Arrestor is a Safety Devise - used to keep engine backfires from destroying the Bubbler and or Electrolyzer (hydrogen generator). HHO is very explosive, even in small amounts. If it gets ignited, it will travel to the Bubbler in a Flash; faster than a speeding bullet. The Bubbler will explode, causing a chain reaction through the water that may travel from bubble to bubble until it reaches the electrolyzer and blows it up. A Bubbler should never be trusted to stop a Flashback. Further more, a one way valve or check valve should never be trusted to stop a Flashback.


 

I am trying to find out what the ionization rate for water is and I am not having much luck. Could you possibly help me?
 
Perhaps you are looking for the wrong thing.
Water must be forced to ionize.
Electrolysis is the most popular method. It is a chemical process caused by electric current.
Faraday is considered to be the best at the principle.
 
It is known that anything more than 0.5 amps per square inch of plate surface area, creates excessive heat.
 
It is known that 1.24 volts, between two electrodes, is the most efficient plate voltage. But, that small amount requires excessive amounts of electrolyte. So much, it is impracticale. Ule Brown used 1.47 volts. Bob Boyce uses 2 volts. The higher the voltage is between 2 electrodes, the more heat.
 
We know that the amount of HHO produced is determined by the Amps. There is a direct proportion.
We know that the amount of hydrogen produced is equal to: Amps x .000246
We know that the amount of oxygen produced is equal to: Amps x .0001229
These numbers are CFM. Now multiply by 28.3 to get the Liters.
 
I have been building a tool for configuring a Hydrogen Generator, based on the above information. I made major changes to it last night. I just replublished it to my website. It is what I have so far. Well, I have more info, but not all of it is published.
 
That is the best answer I can give you.
 
Hope it helps.

 


 

Do you get a lot of questions?

I keep very busy answering question presented by my youtube viewers. I am starting to get 3,000 to 4,000 views a day. I am helping individuals in many countries. My goal is not to solve the HHO problems of the world, but to help my fellow man learn what Electrolysis is and understand the basics for producing HHO. I show them good work so they will be able to recognize good work. I prefer to teach people to fish, so they can teach someone else how to fish.

To be honest, the best way to stay focused on furthering existing research is to answer the newbie questions. They need the right answer at the right time, and need it in a way they can relate to. I have a knack for that. As for bashers and naysayers, for the most part, they leave me the heck alone. Read my printed words on youtube. If you want to dispute them, you better know something about the subject; something you didn't just read somewhere, and quote to me. Know what I mean?

I found a better understanding of my own views, trying to explain them to someone else. I am proud to stand up for the cause of a greener environment, and for the opportunity to expose the oil dependency lies; and the automobile industries inadequacies to produce decent mileage efficiencies - because of the free energy devices they bought up and buried. Those days are over.


 


I will have to look into Boyce. It amazes me how little I and many know. At 31 yrs. old I feel like a tagged beef cow ready for the butcher. "They" really try to dumb us down. TV?? can't stand it. 
  I am currently going to school for electrical/software engineering. I am hoping to bring what already been invented to the masses. Free energy. The N-machine?  Why don't they teach this in schools?
Sorry I'm a little frustrated with society.
   First things first.  I have a 1988 vw Cabriolet that was given to me, this is my test vehicle. Have you made any attempt on the oragone gas? 
 

 

 

I can relate to how you feel.
I grew up without the presence of an internet. I am twice your age, plus 2 years; retired now; forced actually. Our Teachers are Taught the same way they are teaching us. 1 plus 1 equals 2. Then we learn there is another math language; binary, 1 plus 1 equals 3. I did some teaching in the military; Viet Nam war error. I actually had to learn how to learn; believe me, it makes a difference when you actually have to rely on what is in your head - in order to survive. I was a young man then, with a lot of responsibility on my shoulders. You are old enough now, to know what I am talking about. Some blame can be placed on our teachers for not teaching us the importance of learning. I really believe that. I learned it the hard way. So, as a military instructor, preparing soldiers for Viet Nam, some were older than myself, I stressed the importance of what I was teaching, and why it was important for them to learn from my experience; their life depended on it. When your life depends on it, you learn real fast. It is one thing to know something; it is something else to know it good enough to teach it to someone else.
 
I have learned that there are a lot of pages torn out of the books we live by. Things that the rich and powerful try to keep from us. We are suppressed. We are not supposed to question what we are taught. Bull shit. You stand your ground. Ask why; ask why not; ask what if. If you don't get informative answers, seek them out on your own; just don't stop looking. The laws of thermodynamics were written by men. The laws are taught to keep us in line. The laws have changed, in my lifetime, and they will change in yours. For one, you can get more energy out than what you put in; the energy comes in from a source you are not aware of. Read up on Tom Bearden; author of Energy from the Vacuum. Tom is a good, life long friend of John Bedini; inventor of the Bedini Motors; free energy motors. I heard about free energy, about 6 years ago. That set me on my course to seek out information. I chose the Joecell technology as a research project; I learned a lot; a lot of suppressed information. It put me on a course to build my web site, from scratch, and provide the world with as much information about the subjects that I know. I am self taught. I learn from the best tool we have; the World Wide Web.
 
I know your frustration. That is why I hand you a light off of my torch.
 
Orgon Gas; yes, I know some things about it. I have played with it; found it; experience the benefit of it. It is difficult to get a Joecell to work; I learned the hard way. I achieved Stage 3, but could not get the living breathing cell to power my engine. So I backed off and sought out changing the cell to a hydrogen generator. I used closer spacing, and a different lid design, but basically there is no difference. Hydrogen gave me results. Three tests, in particular, achieved very very high mileage. The first was 88 miles per gallon. The second was 120 miles per gallon. The third was 267 miles per gallon. After those three tests, I never achieved more than 36 mpg out of my GEO Tracker. Where did the extra energy come from? I used very little water. Well, it certainly was not hydrogen I was running on; nor was it gasoline.
 
I have some videos of Tom and John. They are on my web site. If you have not watched them, you should. It will open you mind to what is ahead for you. There is a spike that enters our electrical circuits, the moment voltage is applied to the diapole. That spike is what you want to capture. That spike is your free energy. That spike comes from the vacuum. That spike is what Tesla found, and used to achieve his best works. Your Engineering school is going to teach you how to get rid of it. Learn what you can from your teachers, and along the way, teach them what you have learned.
 
That is my two cents worth.

 


What is the most efficient frequency at which to operate a HHO PWM?
 
The pulsing of the PWM starts and stops electrical current flow to the Cell. Let's compare it with a 110 vac light bulb. The frequency is 60 cycles per second. At that rate, there is a steady glowing from the bulb element. If we slow the frequency down, the bulb will start to flicker. In other words, by adjusting the frequency, we can change the intensity of the light. The reason is because we are changing the time the light stays on each cycle. A PWM accomplishes the same thing, using DC voltage. The faster the pulsing, the more intense the current will be - to the Cell. It will never be more intense than continuous - straight DC; continuous ON. A PWM increases or decreases the width of the pulse - by modulating it - start stop start stop. It is a way of controlling speed of dc motors, dc lights, and temperature of dc circuits such as our Electrolyzer Cells. There is no magic frequency per-say. But ---------- it is said that bombarding the Cell with 48,000 cycles, and a harmonic of 24,000 cycles, and another harmonic of 12,000 cycles, all at the same time, while applying straight DC, ------ will disassociate the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms in massive amounts. Meyers is said to have done it. Boyce is said to have done it. Lawton is said to have replicated it. Yet there is no visible evidence that they ever accomplished making more LPM than straight DC voltage. Not one video. Boyce gives the information away for free. People try to replicate his work. There is no video success to be found. Not even from Boyce himself. He says it creates a sticky gas, it makes more Orthohydrogen, non of which he or anyone else demonstrates.

 


 

I have seen your video on www.hho4Free.com with the generator mounted in front of a 1994 GEO Tracker and it was producing a lot of hydrogen gas. I also noticed that you monitor your current Ďthruí a LCD panel digital ammeter on your dash. Very nicely done. I also have a generator installed on my 1992 Ford Laser 1.3 liter with a 30 amp PWM controller. I have a problem on my installation of a similar LCD panel ammeter and I sincerely hope that you could advise me on the exact location and how about of the ammeter installation on the circuit diagram of the generator. I have installed the ammeter with the shunt on the negative side of the generator but with erroneous reading from the panel. It read something like negative (-) 130.0 to (+) 145.0 when I turned the potentiometer from end to end. The PWM was working fine because when I turned the pot I could see the production changing but was not able to monitor the current drawn. I would appreciate it if you could advise or show me a complete circuit diagram or maybe a sketch with PWM controller and ammeter installed. Preferably a LCD panel digital ammeter connection like yours that was seen on the video (able to increase or decrease the reading gradually).

 

The Digital ammeter, that I am using, requires a different voltage source to power it, than the one being measured; kind of like a multi-meter that is powered by a battery (AC, DC, amperage, voltage, ohms). My meter uses 5 volts DC to power it. Actually, it can be 5v to 9 volts. When I first hooked it up, I used a 9 volt battery as a power source. I put a switch in Series with it so it could be turned on and off. I mounted the switch on the dash. So, when I wanted to see what the amperage was, I turn the switch on. The switch completed the circuit to the battery and the meter came on. That worked fine, but the battery eventually runs down. I found a DC to DC converter on ebay. It steps 12 volts dc down to 5 volts dc and isolates the 5 volts from the 12 volt source. The 5 volts can be used to power the meter and the meter can measure the 12 volt source; problem solved.
 
Now, I must question where you are measuring your amperage at; the location. In my setup, I measure the load between the battery and the PWM. I measure the complete load of the circuit. I am measuring the current that the cell is drawing, and the additional current that the PWM is drawing. You see, you can't make voltage, or interrupt voltage, without using "some" additional current. So for me, I measure the complete load of the circuit - close to the battery. Make sense?
 
Now for "your" meter. It sounds as though your meter has strapping to allow for different levels of amperage output. That could put the decimal point, for the reading, in the wrong place. 140 amps may actually be 14 amps, or 1.4 amps; see what I mean? If the meter is fluctuating up and down rapidly, there is probably a problem with the voltage not being isolated. If it is just showing the wrong amperage, it is most likely a strap setting on the meter. Or, it could be that your "shunt" is the wrong impedance for the meter; they must match. If you have a 75 mv meter, you need a 75 mv shunt. If not, the meter will not be accurate. The shunts job is to isolate a connection for the meter to read. The digital meter uses very sensitive electronics that would burn up if all of the amperage went through it.

 


I have really enjoyed using KOH for electrolyte. Until cold weather has set in, we had not had any issues. I have noticed since winter weather has started that we need to use considerably more KOH to get the amperage up to power. Have you noticed any such thing and what have you done to correct it. We have also just started to have to get involved with the EFIE O2 sensor enhancers. Have you had any experience with them?

 

I have not seen a change in gas output while using KOH in cold weather. I use an 80 amp PWM, thus, I have my water mixed stronger than most individuals. I only use 10 to 20 amps of power at a given time. My cell has not experienced freezing thus far. Temperatures have gotten down to 9 degrees F. I can tell you, the colder the water gets, the less gas you will produce - because of the water conducting less. I am able to turn up the amperage with my PWM to adjust for temperature changes. That my friend, is the reason for using a high output PWM; winter driving requires more electrolytes in order to raise the conductivity of the water. As the water heats up, amperage will rise.

My container is metal. It is mounted - in front of my vehicle - in the wind. It is not protected from the external elements, as it would be if it were installed in the engine compartment. If I do have problems with freezing, I can add alcohol to the water, or insulate the cell container. Hope this helps.

As for the O2 sensor, I used to use an EFIE circuit but found that changing the MAP sensor voltage was easier and less expensive; it even produced 1 extra mile per gallon; that tells me it worked better. Get yourself a Potentiometer (like a volume control). You need one rated for 10k ohms or 50k ohms. They are inexpensive. Wire it in Series with the MAP sensors 5 volt power wire. You do that by cutting the wire and hooking one wire to one end of the potentiometer (a variable resistor) and the other end of the wire goes to the center tap on the potentiometer. (this is on a OBD1 vehicle).
Once installed, you lower the 5 volts by turning the knob. I use 3.7 volts on the highway, and 4.5 volts in city driving. I adjust the voltage from my dash (My videos show the dashboard and the Pot. I have wired a Digital volt meter to it - so I will know where it is set at. That is not necessary. Your engine will run ruff and stall if you get the voltage too low. What you are doing is - lowering the voltage, which in turn lowers the amount of time the fuel is sprayed into the engine. Less spray means less gas used. You need the hydrogen to make up the difference in power. You can learn more about this by searching the internet for MAP and MAF sensor circuits. They are sold on ebay, but you can make one yourself - as I mentioned above. Hope this helps.


 

My cell is configured  as follows: 6'' x 9'' containment vessel. 16  x 5/8'' od x 7- 1/2'' long tubes with 1/4'' od 8'' long  tubes set in the centre placed at 4-1/2'' dia in the vessel. A second set of 9 tubes set at 2-1/2'' dia. A   1-1/4 dia tube connected to the base of the vessel therefore positive with 5/8'' and 1/4'' within the centre of that tube. All the 1/4'' tubes are negative the 5/8'' are positive. The set of 9 tubes are surrounded by a 3'' od tube which is positive. Electrolytes used = bicarb and also potassium hydroxide using the latter, production of hho is aprox 1/2 litre per minute for an input of 15 to 20 amps. Have tried many variations of the Joe cell and found none of them to be any good,
 

 

I have not seen a Stan Meyers cell configuration produce  much HHO. Personally, I think Stan drew the diagram wrong for a reason.

 
I am having trouble understanding what is in your 6 x 9 container.
  • 16 each, 5/8 tubes,  7.5 inches long
  • 16 each .25 tubes, 8 inches long
Then you have another set of 9 tubes.
 
My God, no wonder you can't get much production.
Each set of tubes is receiving the primary voltage supply; from what I can tell.
Positive at the bottom, negative at the top.
That is one big parallel circuit.
16 plus 9 equals 25.
Your supply current (amperage) is being divided into 25 parts.
If 20 amps is being drawn, each set of tubes is getting 0.8 amps; that is, if they are all the same size and configuration, and they are not.
Electrolysis of water needs amperage applied to the plates surface. You don't have it.
 
Here is an example of what you have built. You took a garden hose and attached a fitting on the end that 25 smaller hoses can connect to. When you turn the water on, it takes 25 paths as it escapes. Each path gets a small amount of water. The amount depends on the diameter of the hose, and the pressure of the supply water before it is divided. That, is a parallel configuration.
 
You would do better with a series configuration.
A series configuration looks like one long hose.
You start off with one hose, connect another hose to that one, then connect another hose to that one. The hose gets longer as you add more hoses. The longer the hose gets, the more resistance it adds to the supply water as it exits. But the water that comes in from the supply end exits at one point - the far end of the hose. If this hose was a set of tubes connected together as if they were one long tube, then the same amount of amperage would be traveling through each tube. It would not be divided up as it is in a parallel configuration. So now, your 20 amp supply is being applied to more surface area.
 
Do an experiment. Test one set of your tubes by its self. Then double the length and test again. You will find you produce the same amount, but are capable of producing twice as much. You have the right idea, but the wrong wiring configuration. Find a way to wire your inside tubes so that they seem to be one long tube. Do the same for the outer tubes.
 
Now to electrolytes.
Water is not a good conductor.
Pure water has almost no conductivity; only trace amounts.
That is why we add substances rich in positive and negative ions; we call them electrolytes.
Electrolysis of water is a chemical process that takes place on the surface area of our metal plates.
When DC voltage is applied to the plates, the positive ions in the water are attracted to the negative plate, and the negative ions are attracted to the positive plate. This causes a PH difference, at opposite plates, one that can actually be measured. The passing of the electrons (current) from the battery causes the water molecules to separate as gases. The hydrogen ions are attracted to the negative plate and the oxygen ions are attracted to the positive plate. They appear as tiny bubbles on the surface of the plates. As their numbers grow, they combine into larger bubbles and lift off from the surface of the plates. All of this happens because of the electrical current (amperage), and electrical pressure (voltage). Yule Brown found that 1.48 volts DC, was the most efficient voltage to use. As voltage gets higher it causes excess heat. That theory is what he based his Series plate configuration on. He applied positive to one plate and negative to another plate, then started adding plates in between them. He called them Neutrals. They helped supply a path for the electrons (current) to travel - and at the same time - lowered the voltage between adjacent plates. So by applying 12 volts, he could lower that voltage to 6 volts between the plates by adding one Neutral. He could lower it to 4 volts by adding a second neutral, and 3 volts by adding a 3rd neutral; and so on. Neutrals are not wired to positive or negative, but they have a more positive side and a more negative side that can be measured between adjacent plates. Neutrals produce gases on both sides; hydrogen on one side and oxygen on the other.
 
The trick for Neutral plates is to keep the electrons traveling "around" the neutral plates. The electrons need to hit the plates, not bypass them. This is accomplished by sealing off the water area between adjacent plates; no leaks. The area between two plates is called a Cell; thus, with multiple neutrals we have a series cell configuration.

 


Is there any way to convert the amp/volt ratio on a car battery to power an efficient electrolysis machine off of the battery?

Voltage is potential, electrical pressure. The battery stores it. The alternator produces it.
Amperage is the movement of electrons - from a negative potential to a more positive potential. In an electrolysis circuit, the cell would be the load. The current would pass from negative to positive - through the water. Water has a very high resistance to current. So the cell plates have to be closer together in order to lower that resistance. Lowering the resistance would allow more electrons to flow to the positive plate. That is measured in amps. So the surface area of the cell plates has a lot to do with the amount of gas that is produced. Electrolysis runs off of DC voltage; be it stored energy from batteries or produced energy from a generator. The voltage attracts the positive and negative ions, in the water to the cell plates. There, a chemical reaction takes place that causes the hydrogen to be separated from the oxygen molecules. Hydrogen is produced on the negative plate and oxygen on the positive. It happens best when the voltage between the plates is 1.48 to 3 volts. Anything higher is wasted energy in the form of heat.

Look at the cell as a capacitor that we charge. The water in the cell is the dielectric. Our challenge is to destroy the dielectric - which would release massive amounts of hydrogen and oxygen. Meyers was doing this. He used high voltage and frequency to break down the water, which produced massive amounts of current as the water was destroyed. He timed it so that it happened over and over.

Today we know we can mist water over a high voltage arc and produce a flame. The arc destroys the water molecules. Tomorrow, we may run our motors off a special sparkplug that is capable of igniting water mist. The plug was invented by Robert Krupa, about 10 years ago. Could it be that changing your spark plugs, installing a hotter coil, and a set of low resistant plug wires, is all that is needed to convert your motor to run on water vapor?

I hope in some way, I answered your question about the battery.

 


 
Do more neutral plates equal less heat? If so, is that the only reason for having more plates?

Electrolysis is most efficient using 1.24 volts as a power source. That is, 1.24 volts applied to the positive and negative plates. You are using 12 volts, actually 13.5 to 14.5 volts. Every thing above 1.24 volts creates excess heat and as well as increase HHO production. If you put a plate between a positive and negative, and measure the voltage from it to positive, it will be exactly half of the applied voltage; same goes for measuring to the negative. You are actually measuring a voltage "drop". Keep in mind, the lower the voltage, the less heat. So now bring on your 12 volt battery. With 1 neutral you will have 6 volts between each plate. With 2 neutrals you will have 4 volts between each plate. With 3 neutrals you will have 3 volts; and so on.

 
We associate the water space between two plates as a cell if and only if the water is isolated so that it can not get around, under, or over the top of the plates. What you have is a "Battery". If you apply 12volts dc to the two outer plates, and it draws 1 amp of current, that means 1 amp of current is flowing from the negative, through each neutral, to the positive. So what you are doing with the neutrals is reducing the voltage between each cell yet allowing the same amount of current to pass through each cell. Neutrals lower the voltage. They have a positive side and a negative side, even though a wire is not attached to them. You add neutrals to lower the voltage - to improve electrolysis efficiency - which in turn reduces heat.

Bob Boyce says 3 square inches on each plate will accommodate 1 amp of current efficiently. 6 square inches, 2 amps; and so on. That pertains to surface area that is covered with water.
 

 
 
Why don't you use PVC?

When I first got into this project, I was researching the joecell. The joecell captures Orgon from the vacuum and uses it as an electrical energy to power the combustion engine. Only a hand-full of individuals were successful with the conversion. I decided to take the electrolysis rout; so I modified the joecell construction. The infamous Joe was into electrolysis in the beginning. He started out with PVC containers. He warns that they will blow up on you. When the water gets hot, the lid will get soft. If the tube is under a vacuum, it will implode. Joe has seen a lid sucked more than an inch - down into the cylinder. He says that it dangerous and I have to agree. So that is the reason for a solid container.

I plan to attempt the Orgon Accumulation some day, so that is another reason for the container being constructed the way it is. You have the choice of making yours the way you want it to be. It does not have to have battery connected to it; meaning it does not have to be the Anode. The tubes inside do not have to touch the container; just isolate them.

It is very important to apply power to the center tube, Cathode, near the bottom. This sets up the magnetic South Pole that will be created by the DC current. However, do not take the cathode bolt out the bottom as I did, take it out the top, or near the top. The important thing is to make the negative connection close to the bottom of the tube. In addition, this will make it easier to mount and easier to remove when you want to clean it out. It will solve problems I had in isolating my PWM's ground from the chassis ground.
 

A lot of people use PVC, sturdy kind. You are welcome to do that, It is the inside arrangement that is import. But if you do this, you will have to build some safety into the container. You will need a blow off. that could be as simple as a soft rubber lid. The rubber lid could also be used on the stainless. You can get them at Lowe's or a home dept. A Stainless container is going to be a lot harder and a lot more expensive. Nothing wrong with a soft container; just keep safety in mind. HHO is very explosive. If a spark gets to it, the HHO in the cell will ignite like my balloon does in my video.

madscientist67 can give you tips on building with PVC. He is a personal friend of mine and a co-worker. Real smart dude. Tell him I sent you.
 


 
I want to buy one of your cells. How much do you charge?

I do not sell anything. I am not in this to make money. My intent is to make my research available to all. I do not sell diagrams. I do not sell stainless steel. I do not cell information. I do not sell parts. I do not sell.

What you see on this site is free information. It is all I have for you.

 

 
What do you know about Oxygen sensors?

Your engine tries to maintain 14.5 parts air to 1 part fuel; no matter how fast you go. If you add anything to the air or fuel mixture the computer picks up on the O2 sensor voltage changes. When it sees a higher voltage, it thinks the air fuel ratio is rich, so it sends less fuel to get the ratio back to 14.5 to 1. When it sees lower voltage, it thinks the air fuel ratio is lean so it sends more fuel to get a 14.5 to 1 ratio. Our air fuel ratio used to be 14.7 parts air. When computer controlled Fuel Injection came out, the ratio was changed to 14.5, and the Catalytic Converter was invented to burn the extra fuel that made it into the exhaust system. This lowered the levels of NoX in the exhaust. This was big oils way of getting you to buy more gasoline, big business' way of selling catalytic converters. and the stock markets way of raising the value of platinum. Adding more air and increasing the compression ration of the pistons was too efficient.

The COSM adds a little voltage to the O2 sensors voltage. This tells the computer that there is too much fuel, so the computer backs off and allows the higher air ratio. A higher air to fuel ratio means a leaner burn, which means better efficiency, cleaner burn.

The COSM goes a step farther by pulsing the voltage to the computer. The computer expects to see a varying voltage from the O2 sensor. If it does not, it thinks it is defective, and goes into an open loop/bypass.

 
 

 
 
Will aluminum tubes work?

Some aluminum types will work. Some will not. I got some 6000 series to work; 6023, or 6060, something like that. However, aluminum does not have any ferrous metal in it (or very little). Because of that, you will not be able to use aluminum for Neutral tubes or plates. The water will not conduct across an aluminum neutral.

You will also find that aluminum acts like a diode. It will block voltage if it is used with stainless steel. For instance, you could use aluminum as the negative and stainless as positive, and the cell would work. But if you make the aluminum positive and the stainless negative, your cell will not make any HHO. There will be no current. Odd but true. If you do decide to use aluminum, in a parallel configuration, + - + - + - , be aware that aluminum is a soft metal. It will deteriorate faster than stainless steel. Your plates will not last as long, and you will not be able to use caustic electrolytes; KOH and NaOh.
 


 
 
Will frequency make a difference in electrolysis?

You could research Stan Meyers work, and Bob Boyce. I think they both used a base frequency and then the first and second harmonic of that frequency. I am not traveling that road. Neither of those men have video proof of their success using their special electronics. I am more interested in developing a plasma flame. That is what Meyers was doing in the end. There are a few individuals replicating Meyers powers source, and the Boyce power source. I have seen them on ebay, and other web sites. But again, I have yet to see proof that they work. There must be a reason why.

I had a 20 amp pwm that had a frequency adjustment. It made a slight difference, but did not amount to much of a change.
 


 
Are you concerned about the insides of your motor rusting?

I for one will not concern myself with the possibility of rusted rings and cylinder walls. We have full synthetic lubricants to protect those. Ever hear of Teflon; slick50, etc? What do they do? They coat a protective barrier on the surface of moving parts. They reduce friction to almost nothing. How is HHO going to burn up that coating, when it burns at a lower heat than the petro we now use. Well if the lower heat is not going to cause rusting, then the water is, right? How so. Our engines burn water today. Gasoline and diesel fuel contain water and our engines burn that water as it enters the combustion chamber as a vapor. HHO is no different. The water vapor around the gas bubbles gets burned along with the other combustible gases. That leaves the exhaust, right? Yep, you better have stainless or aluminum exhaust. If not, it will rust away. The last muffler I bought was stainless. Soon I'll replace my exhaust pipes; with stainless. A small price to pay. They would have rusted away any how. Ever see condensation drip out of a muffler or exhaust pipe? The fact is, when hydrocarbons burn, a by product is water that comes from the burning of the hydrogen. So you see, your engine is used to water being in the combustion chambers, and the exhaust system.
 


 
Do I need to change my timing?

Typically, no. In most cases it is not necessary.

As you produce more HHO, you may want to retard the timing. Pure HHO would probably fire 7 to 30 degrees after/past top dead center. Its flash rate is 3,500 feet per second. So as your mixture contains more HHO, adjust the timing. Some vehicle computers do that automatically.
 


 
What happens if my cell makes too much HHO?

If you produce more HHO than your vehicle can use, let me know. I will take it off your hands. Seriously, if it ever comes to that, you could separate the hydrogen and store it under pressure, then use it later. Bring out the MacGyver in yourself.
 


 
What can I do about rust in my cell?

Rust is not unusual. Could be it is not rust.

Take the cell apart and look for the rust source. If it is coming from the stainless, it will show up. It more than likely is around a weld joint, or around a lower grade of ss. 316 welding rods will rust. So will bolts, washers, nuts, wire, etc.

Rubber will also put some nasty stuff in the water.
Salt, causes lots of yucky brown scum; and rust.
So does vinegar.
The water may be the problem. river water could do that. Rust comes from iron, ferrous metal. Look for it, you will find it.
Excess heat will cause rust on the surface of the plates when the water cools down. It is natural. I use 304 stainless, I have some rust every time I clean my cell out. 316L stainless steel would be a better, but more expensive, choice.

What you should do, is keep the plates/tubes about an inch up off of the bottom of your container. That way they won't get shorted out when you start the cell up, and, it will keep them from conducting to the container if the container is part of your dc circuit.

A PWM is the only way to go. It pulses the DC voltage to the cell. That reduces the heat drastically, and gives you complete control of your HHO production. The web is the only place I know of to get a PWM. The rule to follow for cell efficiency is to allow 1 amp of current for each 2 to 3 square inches of surface area, on each plate that receives current. I am talking series plates here. Series have 1 positive plate and 1 negative plate, with neutral plates in-between them. In a series system, each plate receives the same amount of current. So 30 square inches of surface area would handle 10 amps. Any more amps than that would just be wasted as Heat. This is the theory of Bob Boyce; well known for his work.
 


 
Is there an advantage to using Perforated plates?

Perforated is going to have around 30% less surface area. In the long run, it will be less efficient. Most of the electrical current will pass through the holes, bypassing the plate surface, that will be the main reason for inefficiency. Seeing the gas come from around the holes is a little deceiving to the actual gas production.

I have 3 sources for stainless steel listed for you. speedymetals has perforated flat plate. You could roll your own tubes. Ebay has perforated now and then.

 


 
If I keep adding "a little more" electrolyte at a time, how will I know when I reach the exact saturation of the recipe you used? Sounds like a ridiculous question but I find it incredibly frustrating that everything, even as simple as an amount of baking soda to water, is such a National Secret?

There is no other way to say this :
Read my lips, there is no secret, there is no formula, I couldn't tell you if I wanted to. I do not measure the electrolyte. I add electrolyte and then measure the current. If I don't want to use more than 25 amps, then I stop short of 25 amps. The electrolyte is used to get the cell started. Once the water warms, electrical current will increase accordingly; the hotter the water gets.

In my videos, I show you the configuration and tell you how many amps I am using. The amount of electrolytes, if any, produces the amps: based on the surface area of the plates in the water, the temperature of the water, and spacing of the plates. It all adds up to HHO production.

Heat is not the problem. Control is the problem. Use a Pulse Width Modulator as your power source for the cell. Electrolysis causes heat; period. Heat causes more amps, use the PWM to regulate the amps. That is it. That is your control.
 

1. Start with straight water. If you have very little output, your spacing is generally the reason. 1/8 inch is good, but 1/16 is better.
2. Ruff the surface area of the plates with sand paper. Basically you are attempting to clean them, not scar them up.
3. Now clean the remaining finger prints and oils off as you assemble them. Acetone works well.
4. Cleaning is part of Conditioning the cell. When you apply power, the dc current will create a magnetic field that will align up with your cells field (if you aligned yours correctly). Over time, the constant dc current will force your plates to align with it (Conditioning).
5. I am assuming you have aligned them magnetically and have them marked so you can identify which plate goes where.

 


 
Where did you get your lid?

Here is the address for the lid.

http://www.hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1588&cat=194&page=1


I used one lid for the bottom; it was turned upside down and welded on.
For the top, turn a groove for an O-ring that will fit the tube size; do that on a lath. The 3 inch lid is about 3.5 inches wide.

You can weld just anything on the bottom, as long as it is the same type of stainless and is thick enough to be sturdy. You can also use a rubber lid. They are pretty thick. I use the stainless lid because I run my cell under 15 pounds of vacuum from my intake manifold.
 


 
What has been your best cell configuration?

Using the outer container as positive:
3 inch outer container , Anode, 16 inches tall
2.75 inch neutral 12 inches tall
2.50 inch Negative Cathode 12 inches tall (center tube)

The outer container is going to need insulated from the chassis when you mount it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Using the outer container with out making it positive.
3" inch container, 16 inches tall
2.75 inch positive, 12 inches
2.50 inch neutral, 12 inches
2.25 inch negative 12 inches. (center tube)

If the container touches ground you will have two negatives. If you use straight DC voltage, and don't use a PWM, that will work ok if they touch. But if using a PWM don't let them touch. The PWM voltage has to be isolated for chassis ground; other wise you will not be able to regulate the output with the PWM.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For both configurations, run your negative bolt/rod down through the center tube and weld it an inch or so from the bottom of the tube. Don't take it out the bottom the way I did. take it out the lid, or out the side, close to the top; of course, it has to be insulated from touching the container.

In the second configuration, make the positive tube stick up a little higher than the negative tube. That way you can connect a rod/bolt to it easier and run it out the side or the top (insulate)


If this does not produce enough HHO for you, you will be able to build a second one and mount it beside the first one. Two small ones is better than 1 big one.

I use 304L stainless steel, however 316 is the best but 4 times the cost. I use 0.065 thickness. That will give you 0.060 clearance between the tube sizes I suggested.

I get my steel from http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/ . They sell it by the foot. You will only need to cut the outer container. They will ship it to you in about 3 days.

 


 
What can I do to use less gasoline or diesel fuel?

I think you should first try putting some Additives in you fuel. Sounds strange coming from me, but that should be your first step.

Auto makers, big business, and government do everything in their power to limit the efficiencies of our vehicles. We are stuck with a 14.5 to 1 air fuel ratio. That my man is the reason for our excess fuel consumption. We need leaner fuel; a higher ratios of air; 15 to 20 is what Europe uses. Their vehicle computers allow it; ours do not. So what can you do about it?

Number one thing: Fool your computer by adding an EFIE circuit, or COSM, to your O2 sensor. Your O2 sensor reports any excess oxygen in your exhaust - to the computer. The computer says, ah, you need more gas, here it comes. The O2 sensor sends 0.450 millivolts to the ECM. An EFIE or COSM will let you add a little voltage to that reading so the computer will say, oh - you don't have enough oxygen, let me cut back on the gas for you. By doing this, you will lean out your fuel. You will be able to turn the voltage up or down. I recommend you contact madscientist87 for the COSM. He knows what he is doing.

Number two thing: Add Acetone and Xylene to your fuel; gasoline or diesel. Acetone changes the surface tension of the fuel. That makes it spray a finer mist. That will make it combust better. Better combustion means leaner fuel and more efficient burning. Xylene will help increase octane and help override the affects of alcohol in the fuel. Together they work great. Use 3 ounces of each in every 10 gallons of fuel. Do not get the acetone on your paint. But if you are using E10 gasoline, Ethanol blend, forget Acetone. It will not work with alcohol in the gas.

Number three thing: Add Mothballs made from Naphthalene. The old fashioned moth balls are 99.5 percent Naphthalene. The only kind to use. Add 1 mothball to each 4 gallons of gasoline or diesel fuel. It takes an hour for them to dissolve. They will boost your mileage. Naphthalene is a hydrocarbon. Do not use more than 5 mothballs in 20 gallons. You don't want to carbonize your engine.

A friend of mine drives an El Camino, 305 V8 and gets about 30 mpg with all 3 of these additives. I recommend you try mothballs first.

Down the road, HHO will be the way to go. Right now, you can start saving fuel with the additives. But we can talk HHO if you want.

 


 
Can I use AC volts to make HHO?

Ac voltage will not work. Electrolysis is a chemical process. You need a constant voltage potential on the plates. AC alternates the potential. If you use AC, you will have to add Diodes (bridge rectifier) to convert the AC to DC. A bridge rectifier costs less than $10

Electrolysis is a chemical process. Ions in the water are attracted to the plates. Positive ions are attracted to the negative plates and negative ions are attracted to the positive plates. If the voltage potential on the plates is constantly changing (AC), there will not be any ion movement.
 

 


 
There is no real pressure though in the system right?

Well, there is no back pressure keeping the HHO in the cell; unless your feed hose gets stopped up or plugged up. The HHO is coming out of that container; one way or another. Also, there is hardly any pressure coming out of the cell. Your not going to make enough HHO for that. Your not going to run your motor totally off of HHO. You can only assist with the burning of your gasoline or diesel fuel. That is not all bad. You can help clean up the exhaust and you can get better fuel mileage. It may take some doing, fooling your vehicles computer, but it is common to do that. use the COSM.
 


 
How did you figure out what circuit you needed for your application and how to adjust it in order to not screw up your car?

Well I did a lot of research and testing to figured it out for myself. I am good with electronics and grew up fixing my motors. I am not shy about stepping up to the plate and doing something without worrying about screwing something up. Of course, I use common sense that I learned by doing.
 

 
I have an 800 watt power inverter. Is it possible to connect power to one of these cells with that?

You can use an inverter. But be sure it is an efficient one. Old style Inverters use a lot of amps to create that 110 volts for you. It may take about 35 amps. You measure the amps - between the battery and the inverters battery positive or battery negative. The output of the inverter will be AC volts. You will have to use a Bridge Rectifier to change it back to DC voltage. Will this make more HHO? In general, No, it will not. If you want more HHO, then redesign your generator for higher voltage. Two volts per cell is recommended. So divide 110 volts by 2 volts, and you get 5 5. It will take 56 plates to make 55 cells (water areas). Design the number of plates around the voltage source you are using. (Newer Inverters are 80% to 90% efficient)
 

 
How do you magnetize the needle?

First, thread a small needle with a fine thread. Hang it on a hook or something that can be adjusted up and down. As you approach the needle with the magnet, do so slowly. Watch for the needle to be attracted or repelled. Turn the magnet so as to attract the needle to its surface. Let about 1/3 rd of the needle end stay on the magnet for about 30 seconds. It is easy to do, just don't rush it.
 


 
Where did you get your O2 Oxygen sensor circuit?

I bought mine from Eagle Research http://www.eagle-research.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=16

Madscientist67 makes a better one.
http://www.freewebs.com/jhines2/apps/webstore/

There are all kinds of them on the web now.

 


 
Could the windshield washer bottle be used as a bubbler with a return to the generator and as a washer reservoir?

If you are using electrolytes in your cell water, they would get into the washer bottle. You would then clean your windshield with that in the water. You would also have to put holes in the washer bottle for the cell lines. Do you know MacGyver?
 

 


 
I have brown stuff in my water. Is it coming from the cell?

The brown stuff is in the water, so yes it is happening inside the cell.

What are you using for electrolytes?
What type of stainless are you using?
Is all of the metal - touching the water- good stainless?

It is normal for stuff to come off the stainless while the cell is conditioning itself. It will clean itself.

Rust usually forms where welding has been done.

Iron in the water will rust.

Lots of things could be the cause. so, what is in the water?
 

 


 
My PWM does not change my amps.

The PWM output has to be isolated from the battery. That means you can not let the pwm minus touch your vehicle ground. If that happens, you will not be able to use the potentiometer. That is probably your problem.
 


 
Will your cell run my motor? I have a 4 cylinder.

You would be lucky to run a lawn mower on 2 Liters of HHO. We barely idled a 305 V8 on 5 liters.

Divide 2 quarts of HHO into 2000 pieces. That is how may bites your 4 cylinder motor takes at 1,000 rpm's if you are producing 2 Liters a minute. The most that can do is to Assist your motor. The HHO will burn up the gasoline around it. That will clean up your exhaust. It may even improve your economy. It will be up to your vehicles computer, or up to your motor if you don't have a computer.

Gasoline use 14.5 parts of air to 1 part of gasoline. How many parts of gasoline does it take to fire the cylinder. I don't know; but HHO as a mixture, requires a third less volume than gasoline. Still, the math is high.

At present, brute force is all we have for producing HHO. You need amps. Amps come at a cost; power loss. Your small motor will feel the effects of high amps and draw down your rpm's. That load will wear the belt out on your alternator. I found mounting bracket and alternator kit on ebay that let me change my 55amp alternator out with a 105 amp. I was better off with the 55 amp. It did not draw my motor down as much. A big horsepower motor may not see the extra load, but my small 4 cylinder does.

316 is said to be the best stainless for electrolysis. I use 304. It was good enough for Stan Meyers, its good enough for me. Both rust over time; 316 takes longer and it is 4 times the cost. You get what you pay for - right!

Neutral plates/tubes. If you put a plate between a positive and a negative plate and do not connect a wire to it, it is a Neutral plate. It will have a positive side and a negative side. You see, electrons flow from the negative plate, through the water, to the positive plate. The current in the water causes a potential to be felt on both sides of the neutral plate. The side closest to the negative plate becomes positive. The other side of the plate becomes negative. The best way to understand this is to measure the voltage from the negative plate to the neutral, and then measure from the positive plate to the neutral. . You will find that the total of the two readings is equal to the measurement from the negative plate to the positive plate. Half of the voltage is dropped across each side of the neutral. You will also find that a neutral cuts the current/amps in half. I don't know if that is too legal for your, but it is the law. Each water way between plates is considered a cell area. It is recommended that 2 volts be dropped across each water way. That means a 12 volt cell would be more efficient when using 6 water ways. Problem is, water has to be restricted so that current can not flow around the bottom and around the sides of the plates. That is Bob Boyce theory. In other words, the water in one cell can not leak into another cell. If done right, it is supposed to produce 6 times the gas. I have not seen that yet.
 


 
How do you expect somebody to build your system without some kind of plans?

My videos are my work, my plans, my instructions. They show you what is going on inside and they show you what to expect on the output. The assembly video shows how to put the tubes together. I built a web page on Tube Assembly, it explains the tube dimensions and shows the assembly. That says more than any words I could put on paper. I also built a web page on Plate Spacing. My goal is to show you the process, show you how I did it, and let you decide how you want to do it. If you understand what is happening inside the cell, how the process works, then you can construct a container that works for you. If you don't want to do that, go get plans from someone who wants to make money off of you.

Every vehicle is different. How much room do you have under your hood? How tall can the cell be? How wide? That will determine the size restrictions of the tubes or plates inside the cell. You can't just buy a cell and expect it to fit. You must know ahead of time.
 


 
How would wire mesh work? And what about a helix?

Don't waste your time with gimmicks. Mesh will not hold up to electrolysis. Electrons will eat away at the metal surface, eventually it will fall apart and short the cell. Electrolysis is a chemical reaction. It takes place on the surface of the metal. The closer the two electrodes are, the more production you will have. If you want to use fancy shapes and bends, they have to be identical for both electrodes. You need equal spacing between all parts of the surfaces. Other wise production will be best, only, at the closest surfaces. It is about close and equal spacing, not shape. Don't be blinded by the bubbles hanging around in the water; Look at the gas leaving the container.
 


 
Do you prefer Tubes or Plates?

My partner in crime prefers the flat plates. They are much harder to work with. They form a water capacitor that can hold a charge after power has been removed.

I prefer tubes.

Tubes make a different magnetic field that can easily propel the HHO gases to the top of the cell. Plates are more difficult.

Tubes form a water capacitor as well as an inductor. They hold a charge after power has been removed. Myers found a way of causing the water capacitor to saturate and destroy its diametric (water); which caused catastrophic masses of HHO. He did this with frequency and pulsed dc.

Both plates and tubes can be used to make equal amounts of HHO. It is your choice.

When you apply DC voltage to the cell, it produces current that can be measured in amps. The current (amps) is the movement of electrons from negative to positive. Movement causes heat. Heat reduces the resistance in the water, thus causes more current - that causes more heat - that causes more current - on and on. You have no control over this. The PWM solves this problem. It pulses the DC voltage and current by turning it on off on off on off. It also allows you to adjust the output from zero the maximum. Maximum being the Amp rating of the PWM.
 


 
Do you use a water catcher?

I don't use a bubbler or a water catcher (same thing as a bubbler).

I don't use a flashback arrestor either. But if I did, I would put one at the cell output, and one at the engine input.

I have not had a flashback in a year and a half of running my cell. I have Electronic Throttle body injection.

I have purposely set flame to my cell to test its construction. It has withstood several tests without damage. That speaks for the construction of the container.

If I were using a plastic container, I would use arrestors, and a blow off plug.
 


 
Do you weld stainless steel with stainless welding rods?

Yes, you weld stainless with same type grade stainless.
 


 
What is the purpose of a PWM?

The purpose of the PWM is to pulse the DC voltage to the cell. Pulsing turns the current on off on off on off , thus reducing the heat caused by constant current. In addition, the PWM lets you regulate the amperage. It is not a matter of HHO production, it is matter of control over the production. DC voltage will run away from you. The longer the cell runs the hotter the water will get, the higher the amps will go. Eventually you will blow a fuse, pop a breaker, or burn up an alternator. The PWM solves that problem.
 

 


Can you help me find what is causing the rust in my cell?

Stainless will rust anyplace in the water that it has been welded. Also, the positive tubes will rust because of the surface getting pitted by the bombarding negative electrons striking the positive plate surface. The hydrogen peroxide could, possibly be causing the sludge. I don't recall how it reacted when I tested it last year.

A friend of mine has trouble with his 316 turning the water brown. It did so until he added the 4th or 5th neutral tube. To me, that would be heat causing it. My 304 ss turned the water brown when ever I used any of the caustics in it. It stopped doing that when I used baking soda. You don't need anything else in the water when using baking soda.

Are you using rubber for insulators between the tubes, or anyplace else in the water. That can cause nasty stuff. Have you ever tasted rubber; yucky.

The more ferrous metal you have in the stainless, the likely it is to leach out rust. Rust will not be much of a problem if you have your tubes about an inch off the bottom of the cell. It will settle to the bottom when the sell is off.

You are certain, everything in the water is stainless. The better the grade the less the rust.

Look for rust on the inside of the positive tubes closest to the center, negative. That will tell you if it is rust.

Can you provide more specific details of everything that is touching the water inside the cell?
 


 
How do I apply the dc to my plates; where do I connect?

Negative is applied to the bottom of the center tube. Positive is applied to the top of the outer tube. I always test my tubes in a container of water before putting them in the final container. I want to make sure I orient them North South with North facing up. It is possible to be 180 degrees off (upside down). That is not difficult. Usually the most magnetic goes down, when using tubes.

With plates it is a little more difficult. Always apply Negative at the bottom of the negative plate, and positive at the top of positive plates. This keeps the plates aligned as one big magnet when dc voltage is applied. Most people overlook this detail. It is an important step. Ask madscientist67, he learned the hard way.

Since you are using plates, it will help you to seal the sides; that would be East and West ends of your plates. Use a little flexible sealer between the edges; use a sealer that can handle heat and water. That will keep water currents from ejecting your HHO bubbles out the sides. You want all the bubbles headed towards the top of the container. If they are being pulled down, the cell is upside down. If they are trying to go east and west more so than up, the cell is not facing north. Bubbles from each plate should be headed in the same direction. Get the idea? All bubbles should be rising to the top, not hanging around. (mark those plates so you can take it apart and re assemble in the future without having to align again). I use a hacksaw to cut a small groove in the top of each plate/tube. With plates, you may also need to mark a side.

It is ok to have more than 1 positive and negative. Just apply all positive voltage at the top and negatives at the bottom.

Don't get rushed. Take your time and do it right.

Clean your plates at final assembly. Get all oil and prints off of them. It will help.
 


 
What do you think of this Double Helix cell?

The helix is not very efficient. Looks are deceiving. Put a lid on that thing, then look at the output.

I looked at the double helix video. I guarantee he has lots of electrolyte in the water. The spacing is way far between the screws. In addition, the screw surfaces do not line up parallel. That means there will be more production on some parts of the screws than other parts. It will not be even or equal. That is wasted energy. To me, making a helix does not accomplish squat. A straight ladder would be better, it would allow the bubbles below, to clear out or dislodge bubbles as above, as they rise to the surface.

Electrolysis is a chemical process that takes place on the "surface" area of the metals. A magnetic field is produced by the electron current. That magnetic field plays a role in expelling the gases out the top of the container. As you can see in the video, the gases are hanging around. That is a design flaw to me.

The screws need to be closer together, and they need to be parallel. The biggest portion of the surface area is not being utilized.
 


 
My cell is producing a lot of foam. I am using a quart of water every 75 miles!

If you are using a quart of water in 75 miles, your vacuum is too strong. It is sucking the water out of the cell. That is a bad thing if you are using caustics as electrolytes, and have aluminum in your engine.

Put a small adjustable valve on the hose, close to the intake port. Adjust the vacuum to 10 to 15. That will stop the sucking of the water; that is, as long as you have a few inches of head space above the water. The water won't hurt the gasoline engine, the caustic soda will.

Smell your exhaust. If it is fresh, the HHO is burning the excess gas fumes. If mpg has not improved, the ECM (computer) is compensating for the excess oxygen it sees in the exhaust. You need to change the voltage reading coming off of the Oxygen Sensor's). You can easily do that with a EFIE circuit. You can get one from madscientist67 (a personal friend of mine). He calls his circuit a COSM, and can not make them fast enough. The circuit adds voltage to the 02 sensors output. It also changes that voltage several times a second. The computer thinks the 02sensor is seeing excess oxygen in the exhaust, so it cuts back on the gas -- instead of adding more gas.

I trust you are running 35 to 40lbs of air pressure in your tires. 1lb of low air makes a 1mpg difference. Friction plays a big part in mpg. So does clean oil, hot spark, free air flow.

I trust you have economy driving habits; slow down early, start off slow and gradually build speed.

If your cell is producing a lot of foam, without being under a vacuum, I suspect your plates are not aligned magnetically. That would cause the HHO to hang around. I can't stress this enough. I have a couple of videos that show you how to do this. There is more to it than just putting 6 pieces of metal together. The pieces have to be assembled as if they were all sliced from the same loaf of bread, then sat on a plate. Ask madscientist67. It took him 3 hours to get his right; but it made a big difference for him.
 


 
Is it normal to have steam coming from the cell?
 
It is not normal for "steam", per-say, to come out of a cell, but it is normal for water vapor. The H and O gases rise out of the water as bubbles. A bubble is made up of air/gas surrounded by a thin water membrane. That is what you are seeing.

Water vapor is a good thing. It will burn when the HHO ignites. One of my videos shows the vapor coming off the water.
 

 


 
I have built a cell and a working system but I still have a problem. It is installed on a semi truck but with only 8 to 10 hrs. working, turns out in dense mud difficulting the circulation and slowing down the production. any body have an idea how to resolve this problem?

What are you using for electrolytes; to increase the conductivity of the water?
Salt and vinegar both produce a nasty brown sludge, and foam.
Rust will also cause a buildup.

Did you build this yourself, or purchase it.
How much current are you using (amps).

Any copper metal in the water; connectors, wires.

 


 
How do you add the HHO to the engine? And is this waste of time?

You feed the HHO to your engine. Through the air way, or through the intake manifold. The largest manifold hose is usually the best input to share. That is usually the line that feeds the brake booster. The cell can produce up to 40% more HHO under a vacuum.


You stated: Also, I would like to know if this is not true because I have been reading previous post and many say its a waste of time.

Don't believe everything you read. Big business and big oil will stop at nothing.

What are trying to do? Run your car on water, or assist? You are not going to run it on water. On the other hand, it does not take much HHO to assist in the burning of the gasoline or diesel. A better burn means better efficiency and cleaner exhaust. If your computer accepts the new fuel, great. If it doesn't it will take some work to fool it.

If you are not willing to stick with it, or can't afford it, then buy a box of mothballs. The ones made from Naphthalene. Add 1 to each 4 gallons of gasoline; no more than 5 to 20 gallons. Put them in your gas tank. They will dissolve in an hour or two. You can expect to see an increase in mpg; 15 to 50%. It will increase over the next 6 fill-ups and level off. I went from 24mpg to 28mpg city - first tank. There are a lot of testimonies on the web. I several first hand. 22mpg to 29.5, 22mpg to 31mpg, 9mpg to 10.5 in big V8 truck.

Acetone and Xylene are two additives that work together. 2 to 3 ounces of each to 10 gallons of gas or diesel.

Don't believe everything you read against these additives. They work. They do not harm.

If you continue your hydrogen project, you do it for yourself. No one else is going to do it for you. I put my information out here for you and anyone else than can use it. It is free. I get nothing in return except the benefit that I know I am helping those that want to help themselves.
 


My question is - are these cells dependable? Do they require a lot of attention?

I experiment with different configurations in my cell. The best output I have obtained has been with 3 tubes, using only 1 neutral.

A cell requires "some" maintenance now and then. You should check the water level once every week or two, even if you don't think it needs any.

I have a switch on the dash for cell on/off. It is wired through a hot ignition lead from the cigarette lighter fuse circuit. That way the cell will turn off when the ignition is turned off; and if I decide to turn it off while driving, the on/off switch accomplishes that.

I monitor my battery voltage and cell current from the dash. I use an 80amp PWM to turn the amperage up or down.

If you fuse the cell circuit and use a Relay to apply power to the cell, you will be taking the necessary safety precautions. HHO is safer than gasoline, but the cell needs to be engineered safe to start with.

My GEO Tracker is not good with accepting the HHO. The ECM fights it, because it is old OBD1, which uses pre-sets for gas and air mixtures. I use an EFIE circuit to add voltage to the O2 sensor voltage. This tells the ECM to cut back on the fuel mixture.

I went from 24mpg to 35mpg normal driving around town.


 


 
My tubes are 0.75cm spaced. can I use an AC Inverter?

If 0.75cm is equal to 0.3inches, your spacing between tubes is too far. I use 0.065 thousandths. I accomplish that by using tubes that have a 0.25 inch difference in diameter (1/4 inch). The wider the spacing, the less the water conducts. The less the water conducts, the more electrolyte you need to add to get better production. and the higher your amps go. But if you have to use what you have, no problem; just use a stronger electrolyte mix.

I tried using a 750 watt Inverter. It took 33 amps to power the inverter, which produced 110vac, that I rectified to dc. I would only allow 6.5 amps output. The gas production was very poor, even with close spacing. I said the heck with creating high voltage. I was using more amps to make the voltage than I was getting out. I got better production out of straight 12 volts and 10 amps. Now, there are new Inverter designs that are 80 to 90% efficient. That makes me take another look at Inverters.


As for my bolts, they are welded on the tubes. Loose connectors cause heat. If the tubes are not magnetically aligned the same, they will cause heat, and lower your production. One will buck the field set up by the DC voltage. You want the cell to act as one magnet. This will help the HHO clear the container ASAP.
 


 
Does your cell produce pressure? Will it run my motor?

Small scale Electrolysis, does not produce enough pressure to run much more than a weed eater. The hydrogen and oxygen rise out of the container as they are produced. The more you make the that comes out. If you can capture just the hydrogen, and bottle it, you could then run on what you have stored. We are not doing that. We are using the HHO as it is produced. H is 14 times lighter than air. It is coming out of that container without assistance. Yet if you put the container under a vacuum, it can produce 40% more HHO.

Some are saying they are running off nothing but HHO. They are using multiple cells. Adding cells means more current is needed to power them. Stan Myers was doing it. He found a way to produce enough HHO to run his vehicle, using low output current. But he used a large amount of amperage creating his high voltage. That, you won't hear about. Everybody says, -- use high voltage and low current. --- problem is, it takes more amperage to produce high voltage, than you will get out of the use of the high voltage. So why not just use the input amperage to start with. Their argument is HEAT. I don't see heat as an argument. It is a necessity. As water temperature rises, so does the conductivity. The hotter the water, the better the water will electrolyze. If you want to control the heat, use a PWM. It pulses the DC, thus reduces the heat.

Start your experiments. You will find that closer spacing between your plates will produce more HHO. The closer, the better the water conducts. The wider the spacing, the more you will need to add electrolytes - to make the water conduct.
 


 
Why are you using a joecell?

I started my Free Energy research - with the Joecell. I determined it was more feasible to change course, so I modified my cell, from the joecell design. My cylinders are longer and closer.
The cell still acts like a water capacitor, and water inductor, and it still holds a charge of 1.2 to 1.6 volts DC. At times, I have felt the surge of power, like a joecell, but the occasions are rare. I pulse the DC to the cell continuously while driving. I am doing Electrolysis, not collecting Orgon. Thus we can safely say I utilize stage 1. However, I have reached stage 2 and 3 with the tubes in a large plastic bucket with a lid. The foam stayed on for days. That should be encouraging for you. The longer tubes are better for electrolysis. The magnetic field is longer; I don't know if that really matters. The important step is to align the tubes magnetically. That really makes the difference. It only takes one out of whack to cause trouble.

Studying Zero Point energy should help us with the joecell. I think the dipole is getting shorted by our electronics sharing the same common ground with the Orgon. That is only a theory. I need to know a lot more to figure it out. Don't we all.


 


 
I'm sure you or some others have thought of it, but have you tried stainless steel mesh (like window screening for bugs)? I'm sure the accumulative surface area would be more than that of perforated steel. I've also found that a pulsed DC wave form such as you advocate is far superior to straight DC and that some have advocated a frequency of around close to 40Khz for a 12V, 12 cycle pulse, i.e., a train of 12 pulses to 12V then reverse polarity of 12, -12V pulses at 40Khz. Is this anything like what you're doing?

All of what you say will work. I would not use screen. It will not hold up over the long haul. Electrons will bombard the surface of the screen, causing pitting. That will eat away at it. The result would be a short cause by the metal particles lodging between plates. As for the Pulse, I use a PWM. It suits me fine. If someone ever perfects the frequency thingy, I will try it.
 

 


 
Do you think amperage plays a much higher role than voltage? Tesla found some very interesting things in his pursuit of "zero-point energy" using HUGE amounts of voltage but very low current. What are your ideas on HIGH voltage, low current sources for electrolysis?

The output of the cell is measured in WATTS. Volts times Amps equals watts. It costs you power to make high voltage. It may not take as much amperage on the output, but you use a lot of amps on the input. I experimented with an old style DC to AC Inverter. It took 12 volts and converted it to 110 vac. It required 33 amps of input power to make the 110vac at 6.5 amps output. I then rectified the ac to 110vdc. The HHO output was far less than what 33 amps of straight DC put out. I dropped the Inverter idea. Now, there are better Inverts on the market. They are 80 to 90% efficient. That opens the door to using Inverters. A high voltage electrolyzer needs 2 volts between each set of plates in order to be efficient. That would be 56 plates for a 110 volt power source. That is a lot of plates to put under the hood of a car; but it makes a lot more gas, more efficiently.

Using the Electrolysis method, Voltage is the electrical pressure that causes the amperage flow; based on the resistance of the water. Electrolysis uses the amperage to disassociate the water molecules. As Faraday puts it, 1 ampere produces about 10.44 ML of HHO per second, between each set of plates.
 


 
Will I get more miles per gallon with your system?

I can't say you will get more mpg. It is up to your computer. If it fights it, you will have to add an EFIE circuit that modifies the O2 sensor voltage. madscientist67makes one that he guarantees to work. Try searching the web for HHO explorer. I do not know of a list of vehicles that exists for this. Ford is notorious for taking the "cheap" rout when it comes to electronic sensors and ECM's. Pre 1996 vehicles are especially hard to get to accept HHO (those with OBD1 computers).

 


 
I have a carburetor and no computer. How do I get the gas into the motor?

You are one of the lucky ones; no computer.
Use a vacuum port. The PCV port will work good. So will the largest vacuum port; the one going to the brake booster.

The engine is not going to overrun. You are not running on HHO, you are running on assist. Each cylinder will get a small "bite" of HHO each time it receives gasoline. The spark will ignite the HHO. The HHO will cause all of the gasoline to be burned inside the combustion chamber. You may need to back off a bit on the air adjustment (carb). And you may need to take the timing closer to TDC. The more dominant the HHO amount gets, the more volatile the mixture is. To put this in perspective, If you were running on pure HHO alone, your timing would have to be set to fire "After" TDC. Why?; because HHO's flash rate is 3,500 ft per second. There is no delay. but with gasoline there. That's why gasoline has to be ignited before it gets to TDC. Pure HHO, using your normal gasoline timing setting, would drive your pistons backwards. Get the idea?

As for back-flashes; plan for them. You will not be making dangerous amounts of HHO, but you will be making enough to burst a PVC type container. Build a blow off lid or valve. Install a flashback arrestor. I personally don't use one. I have not had a flashback via the engine. I have intentionally cause several though. My cell took it and survived each time. That is why I built a solid stainless container.

You asked about Diesels. HHO works with Diesels. Probably better than with gasoline. Diesels do not need as much HHO.

One word of advise; If you don't have some MacGyver in you; find some :) Once you understand the theory, the rest is just common sense.


 


 
I purchased the parts to build a pwm but I'm not sure how to put it together. I've seen lots of different ways on you tube but I'm not sure. would you send me a diagram on how to put it together.

Wait a minute, you purchased the parts to build one and don't know how? I didn't come with instructions? You had best return it and get one ready made.

How could I have a diagram of something you bought.

You can't mean what you typed. Literally. But if it is true, you need help. Look for someone you know that fiddles with electronics. If you can't find someone. Chalk it up as lessons learned. Buy the real thing.

10 plates, 4 plates, is that all the details you can provide? Are they alternating + & - any neutrals? I help a lot of people, but geeze, give me something to work with.

I'll give you a tip.
Go out and buy a box of mothballs; the old fashion kind; made from Naphthalene. Only the ones made from Naphthalene. Right it down. Naphthalene. Now,,,, add 1 mothball to every 4 gallons of gasoline. No more than 5 in 20 gallons of gas. They dissolve after a few hours. You will get a noticeable increase in MPG (miles per gallon). Each tank of gas, for the next 6 tanks, will get better. It will not harm your motor.
My Tracker went from 24mpg city , to 28.33mpg. Acetone did not work in my Tracker, but the mothballs do. Give it a try. It is a start to better mpg. (oh, did I say get the ones made from Naphthalene?)

Seriously, don't buy electronic kits if you don't know squat about electronics. You are throwing money away.

 


 
What is the best way to know when the alternator is being over worked?

If you monitor your battery voltage and your amps, you can use them to know when to cut back on the amps. When your alternator is reaching its limit, the battery voltage starts dropping. That is the time to cut back on the PWM output. I was able to run my cell at 45 and 50 amps on a 55 amp alternator. When my voltage started dropping below 12v, I lowered the PWM output. I never had a problem. I even ran 60 amps for short periods; always watching the battery voltage. Get the idea?
 


 
Explain Neutrals!

Neutral plates.
If you put a piece of metal between a positive and a negative plate, that plate becomes a neutral. One side of it is positive and the other side is negative - Ripley's believe it or not! HHO will form on both sides. H on the negative side, and O on the positive side. Current passing through the water hits the neutral and passes through it. Electrical pressure (voltage) can be measured from positive to the neutral and from negative to the neutral. What does the neutral do? For one, it cuts the current flow in half. If you had 10 amps, you now have 5 amps. Why? The neutral adds resistance between the positive and negative. But, it also adds surface area. HHO is produced on the surface of the plates. Each neutral added, cuts the current in half again, and again. Providing more surface area for production, yet lowering amperage. Too many neutrals and the cell will not produce much. Without them, the cells heats up quick.

At present, I prefer to use 1 neutral. I overcome heat problems by using pulsing the DC voltage via a PWM. Pulsing the current slows down the heat. The PWM allows you to turn the current up or down, increase it or decrease it. Why would you want to do that? To keep the electrolysis process from running away from you. Remember, the more the current the more the heat, thus the more current, thus more heat?

I don't know how hot my cell gets, and I really don't care. I monitor my battery voltage. I monitor my amps. If my amps are getting high, I cut back on the PWM. I want the heat. With heat, I need less electrolyte to make the water conduct better.


 


 
What is going on in my cell? I am frustrated.

Your lack of knowing what is going on inside the cell is what frustrates you. Lighting bubbles is not helping.

Electrolysis is a chemical process. The PH of the water changes at the surface of the plates, when DC voltage is applied to the plates. The voltage is electrical pressure. The higher the voltage, the higher the pressure. This causes the ions in the water molecules to be attracted to their opposite potential positive/negative. Their accumulation on the surface area of the plates causes the PH change, which causes the H hydrogen and O oxygen gases to be released - on the surface area of the plates. You can't just produce Hydrogen without producing Oxygen. For electrolysis to take place, both HH and O gases are being created from each water molecule that gets broken down. Like it or not, that is the way it is.

Now, lets introduce current. The Electrons in the battery Negative terminal are attracted to the Positive terminal when you cover the plates with water. The water makes a bridge that allows the electrons to move from the negative plate - through the water - to the positive plate. That movement is current, it is measured in Amperes. Plain water is not a good conductor. In order to use it, your plates have to be close together; the closer they are, the more current that passes between them. Movement causes Heat. Heat reduces the resistance in the water, in other words, it makes the water a better conductor. When that happens, more electrons can get across the bridge - which causes more Heat - which is increasing the current. This keeps going on and on. Eventually it will drain your battery source or pop a fuse/circuit breaker.

The size of the wire you use is a contributing factor. The larger the wire, the more current it can carry - without the wire heating up. The length of the wire is the same way. The connection of the wire to the plates also contributes. A poor connection increases resistance, and causes heat.

 


 
How do you attach the cell?

The important thing is to attach Negative to the bottom of the center tube, and positive to the top of the outer tube. The container does not have to be the outer tube. In my case, it is.

If you don't have a little MacGyver in you, you better find some :)

Most people use plastic Containers. That is fine as long as they take precautions to control the heat via a PWM, and fix a blow off lid or port. If the cell gets a spark it could cause an explosion; if that happens, you need a way to release the explosive pressure. My stainless design has handled several intentional explosions without a problem.

I would use 3 tubes inside the container. 1.5, 1.75, and 2 inch diameters. Each 8 to 12 inches tall. I used 12 inches. The center tube is negative, the next one is a neutral, the outer one gets your positive.

I recommend using a solid bottom, even if you use some type of plastic (abs, pvc, etc.). The bottom has to support a lot of weight. Stainless and water are heavy.

I recommend taking the rod for the cathode (negative) out the top instead of the bottom. It is easier to work with. My next cells will be done that way. You can then take your bolt out the lid, or out the side, close to the top.

The positive bolt can go out the lid, or out the side near the top. Get the idea?

My video on Assembling the Tubes will help you.

Look under your hood; Find how much room you have for a cell. Height and width. Use that as footprint for the size of your container.

I know you are loaded with questions. They will get answered in time. Lets start with this.

 


 
I am new to Fuel Optimization. My water is mucking up.

Describe - mucking up for me1

Backing Soda is a powder. It dissolves, but leaves a substance in the water that floats around. That can be filtered off.

Caustic Soda, sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, lye, cause the chromium to leach out of the stainless. It is toxic by the way. Don't breath the vapor off the cell when using these products.

Salt causes a brown gunk. It also causes lightening strikes under the water. Salt should be avoided.

Vinegar causes a brown gunk.

If you have Rust accumulating, it will settle to the bottom of the cell. It usually accumulates on the positive plates/tubes. The negative electrons bombard the positive surfaces; actually cause pitting, which can turn to rust once the protective coating is warn off the stainless surface. Weld spots usually rust first. Any low grade stainless parts that are in the water will rust first. 316 ss welding rods will rust.

It is an important step - to align your plates/tubes magnetically if you want the best possible gas production. I can not stress it enough.


 


 
My PWM does not change anything. It is the same amps as straight DC.

You have not isolated the PWM Motor negative from your battery negative (chassis ground)
they can not touch.
If they do - you can not regulate the PWM


 


 
I have a water4gas unit. Getting 20% better mpg. How much HHO is too much?

It surprises me that you get enough HHO out of the water4gas unit for a 20% improvement. The wire wound units spacing is not close. I am surprised it produces much at all.

Don't worry about producing too much HHO. It won't happen. The more you can make, the better off you will be. On the other hand, if you were making enough to run the motor, the timing would have to be changed to fire - after top dead center. Reason, HHO is explosive, and burns exceptionally fast, about 3,500 feet per second. If it is ignited before TDC, it would drive the piston backwards. That is not a problem using it as an additive with the gasoline,, because the burn rate of gasoline is so slow. As your HHO production increases, you may want to slightly adjust timing to be closer to TDC.

Your computer is allowing the HHO. That is good. You could improve it by fooling the oxygen sensor voltage. Madscientist67 has a solution. He makes a COSM2A that adds voltage to the voltage the O2 sensor sends to the ECM. It tells the ECM to cut back on the gasoline - lean it out.

Your miles per gallon (liter) will increase as your burn efficiency increases. The engine will run smoother, quieter, oil changes will last longer, the exhaust will smell fresh. Those are all good things.

Gas Feed - I think hydrostar uses the same set up. Feeding the HHO into the air inlet and the manifold. Interesting. I have used each method, but not both at the same time. I use a valve to restrict the manifold pressure to 15 pounds. The 3/8 tube size is good. That is what I use. The smaller the tube diameter, the more restriction you will add to the HHO escaping the cell. (how fast/slow air can you let air out of a balloon - how do you control that).
 

 


 
I hooked my cell up to my car and blows my fuse; every time.

It never fails, amperage always goes up when you put the cell on the vehicle. The bench power supply is not the same.

How do you know it was 6 - 10 amps on the bench. Did you measure it or did you go by a meter on the charger. Chargers are not reliable. You have to measure it.

Get rid of the water in the cell. Start fresh with plain water. Get an amp meter. Know how many amps its drawing, don't guess, measure it. The water causes the draw. Nothing but the water. Add a small amount of electrolyte at a time. Measure the change. keep doing that until you get the amperage where you want it.

20 amps isn't much at all. If you are using straight DC voltage, you can count on the amps going higher, as the water gets hotter. You have no way of controlling it. That is why we use PWM's, they pulse the DC and allow you to turn the gas production up or down.

Don't be discouraged, you made a fantastic accomplishment. You just need to add a few more steps of precaution. Start by changing that water, it is too concentrated with electrolytes.


 


 
What configuration would you recommend for a big block V8?

I would use 12 inch tubes inside the container. I would allow 4 or 5 inches of headspace - above the tops of the tubes. The tubes need to be about an inch above the bottom of the container.

The container can be plastic or stainless, I prefer stainless. Plastic can be made safe, if you heavy material, made for hot water.

Do not connect the Cathode (negative) through the bottom of the container. Instead, rout the cathode from the bottom of the center tube, up through the center tube, and take it out the side, near the top, or take it out the lid. This will accomplish the same thing, but make it easier to hook up and maintain.

If you use a plastic container, you will need to incorporate a lid that can blow off if a flash occurs, or something along that line. If you don't the cell will come apart if a flashback occurs.

A 3inch outer container will probably work best. Inside, use 1.5, 1.75, and 2 inch tubes. This configuration produces the best for me.

You are not going to run that big block on HHO. You are going to run a hybrid; assisting the complete burn of your gasoline. That is all you can expect with any HHO cell. That is why I recommended using the Acetone and Xylene first. If it works, you may not need the HHO. Some companies that sell HHO cells, also advise you to use their special additives to help improve mileage. It is acetone and Xylene.

It only takes a small amount of HHO to make a difference. 2 liters is a good measure. If you turn high rpms, in a vehicle that is geared low, you will probably want 2 cells. Start with one.

Next thing is the DC voltage. If you run straight DC voltage, the high current going through your chassis will rust the metal if salt is used in your area. I found out the hard way. What you need to do, anyway, is use a PWM. It pulses the DC voltage to your cell. Its out put goes to the cell, and only the cell. It does not share common ground with your chassis. Thus no rust.

The unit you were considering, says nothing about a PWM. Actually they very little about anything. The guy is on youtube; has several videos. I could not find any fraud complaints on them, but then on the other hand, I could not find any feedback either. That is what you want to look for. They are not showing measuring the HHO as it comes out. Why not? Big question. Also, they say + or - 3.8 liters per minute; covered their butts. Honestly, I don't know of anyone getting that kind of gas with 16 amps. And consider the heat. 16 amps is going to cause some heat. If the voltage is not pulsed, 16 amps is going to increase to 20, then 25, then 30, and so on. It won't stop until your circuit breaker pops or your alternator stops. That is why you need a PWM to back off on the voltage for you. And get an 80 amp PWM, even if you don't plan on using that much amperage. I can't stress that enough. As the water gets hotter, the amps are going to rise because their is less resistance in the water - which allows for more current flow.

Summer driving requires less electrolytes, Winter requires a heck of a lot more. In between seasons, temperatures go up and down. It is times like that that you will appreciate an 80 amp PWM. You have more room to vary the current, and not have to worry about burning up the PWM. 20 and 30 amp PWMs do not have much tolerance when it comes to over amperage.

The information I have provided is the best advise I can give anyone building a cell. I didn't just make it up; I accomplished it; and I want you to accomplish it - so you can help someone else accomplish it.


 


 
Explain Driving within the limits of the HHO you are producing.

As soon as you touch the accelerator, you feel the affects of the HHO. Response is quicker. You don't have to push the peddle as far. It is very noticeable, mainly because your engine is burning more efficiently.

The faster you go, the move HHO you need to keep this efficiency working for you. As soon as you reach the limits, you will notice a hesitation; that is, you will notice there is no response when you slightly push the peddle.

This can happen by speeding up too fast, driving in too low of a gear, or even driving in too high of a gear for the speed you are going. You can develop more sensitive driving habits that will allow you to push the limits of your mpg. It takes practice, and it takes concentrating on it. Your vehicle will accelerate, gradually, with the slightest change to the accelerator. The idea, is to not push it - that is, let the engine and transmission do the work gradually. Our driving habits are mostly fast paced. We are worried about the person behind us thinking we are an old farmer. Get over that idea if you want to extend the limits of your mpg. Are you getting the idea?

In addition, you have to air up your tires, tune up your motor, coast when you can - it is allowed; start slowing down early for stops. take off more gradual. The more HHO you can make, the farther you can push the limits of the HHO.

And don't forget about friction going around curves. Making sharp turns slows you down - be conscious of keeping as straight a line as you can.


 


 
What can I do if the HHO does not help?

If the computer recognizes the additional oxygen in the exhaust, it is easy to fool it. I use an EFIE circuit that I paid $60 for. You can make one out of a 1.5v battery and a potentiometer. A friend of mine, madscientist67 makes a nice one for $40. The circuit adds voltage to that the O2 sensor provides. It is a good idea to have one, even if you don't do the HHO thing. The computer tries to keep a 14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio. The O2 sensor tries to maintain 0.450 millivolts (varying voltage) to the ECM. My EFIE lets me adjust it higher or lower. I run around 0.750 to .900. Some manufacturers use lower voltage to cut back on the gas. My sensor needs higher voltage to tell the computer it does not have enough oxygen in the exhaust. Your dad should know this.

I even go so far as to cut back on my MAP sensor voltage - while I drive. I have a meter on it.

Listen, we have been lied to for years. They have us believing we can't get better gas mileage. They have us believing the cars are engineered for economy. Lies, all lies. 70 to 80% of the fuel does not burn inside the engine. The catalytic converter eats it. The more research you do on this subject, the more pissed off you are going to get at the car manufacturers.


 


 
I am thinking about putting a cell on my Cherokee. Will it accept HHO?

Good choice of vehicles.

The Cherokee's accept the HHO right out of the gate. You will be able to make that better with a COSM from madscientist67. It is circuit that fools the computer oxygen sensor reading.

Economy depends on the vehicle and the driver's habits. If you have poor habits, you will have poor mileage, no matter what you drive.

My GEO Tracker fights economy. I get 40 to 45% increase using HHO. Normal 24mpg, 35mpg with HHO. I have gotten as high as 66miles on a quart of gasoline; that was under very strict controlled driving under 40mph. That is what keeps me going with this project.

2 Liters of HHO per minute will show you a big improvement. Madscientist67 is a personal friend of mine; I got him started with his cell. He uses a plastic container. He would love to tell you his story :)


 


 
Does the cell run off of the Battery? How do you keep water from getting into the engine?

The cell runs off the alternator; the battery is for backup. Monitoring the battery voltage will tell you when the alternator is overloaded; battery voltage starts dropping. I used a 55amp alternator on my cell for a year and a half. Pulled as much as 60 amps for short periods. Most of the time I ran 25 to 35 amps without any strain on the alternator.

I feed the HHO into my intake - after the throttle body. I use the main Vacuum line that feeds my brake booster. Some people just feed the gasses into the air system; no vacuum that way. Up to 40% more HHO can be produced when under a vacuum. You have a diesel. You will likely feed it into your air system.

As for spilling into the engine goes --- when you carry a bucket of water, do you fill it to the rim or allow room for spillage? Obviously one needs to leave room for overflow spillage.

Diesel has water in it; gasoline has water in it; under compression, it gets burned or it gets ejected out the exhaust. The diesel will lockup if too much water is in a cylinder. Run your HHO through a bubbler or two first. That will filter the water off before it enters the engine.

A small amount of HHO will cause a complete burn of the diesel fuel. That means more power - less fuel needed to go the same distance - cleaner exhaust. There are fleets of diesel rigs running HHO as a boost. Search and you will find.

This is not a rocket science. It is common sense. You solve problems with common sense solutions. Like - the way you carry a bucket of water.


 


 
I have a couple questions about the electrolyte. My project is almost put together and I heard that you have to soak your parts overnight in LYE to get the oil residues off from it. Where can I get this LYE? How much do I use? Am I supposed to use the LYE in the finished product as the electrolyte also?

Sodium Hydroxide, caustic soda, Lye, Draino, all are the same thing. Except Draino has some other particles in it. You can get it at a hardware store, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.

The process is called Conditioning. When done correctly, it is a long drug out process. I have done it.

I just get the tubes ready to assemble. Then I clean them with Acetone or denatured alcohol. The scuff them up inside and out with sandpaper to get things you may have missed and to create a surface of hills and valleys that will help bubbles dislodge from the plate surface. Then clean them again. Then put the cell together (supposedly so you don't get finger oil on them again). Don't forget to magnetically align them and mark them, before you clean them.

I will try to find Bob Boyce's method, and post it.
 


Two questions, why a 80 breaker if the alternator does not put out 80amps? And for testing the cell out of the car, can I run it off a cut cord and plug it into a house socket, my battery charger is not that good.

The electronics you are looking at are my way, for my cell, the way I am hooked up, using the 80Amp limit. I matched my components. The battery has a lot more amp output than the alternator. I planned on using up to 80 amps, and I have. You do yours the way you want to. If for instance you fuse for 30 amps. that will be your limit.

As for cutting the cord and plugging it into a house socket. You don't know even the basics about voltage do you? Not a problem. Your battery is DC voltage, direct current. It is stored energy. Your house uses AC voltage, alternating current. The voltage on your wires changes from positive to negative, 60 times a second. DC voltage never changes.

Electrolysis will only work using DC voltage. Your battery charger changes AC voltage to DC voltage. It rectifies the voltage from AC to DC.
 


I found "crystals of household 100% lye drain opener" 1lb. container. I have a few questions about this stuff for you. On the bottle it says use with cold water only-several times. It says NOT to use with warm water-several times. What is going to happen when the cell heats up to operating temp? I am very concerned with this! Another thing it says is DO NOT USE WITH ALUMINUM OR ON ALUMINUM. I had planned on running the cell electrolyte through a transmission cooler to keep it cool. Is it going to be impossible to run it through the aluminum transmission cooler?
If you plan on using this stuff for drain cleaner, then by all means, follow the directions on the label. Caustic Soda, is Lye, Lye is Sodium Hydroxide. It is acidic. It dissolves aluminum. Put aluminum in it and it will make hydrogen gas.

Aluminum Transmission Cooler.
If it is anything like a radiator, for get it if you plan on using any kind of electrolyte. Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium hydroxide will eat it up. Salt, Vinegar, and Baking Soda will stop it up.

Personally, I don't use anything to cool my cell. I power it with a PWM. It pulses the DC to the cell, thus eliminating the high heat.

The heat caution on the label has to do with cleaning out drains. When you add this stuff to water, it makes its own heat while it is dissolving. It won't matter a bit in the cell. You are going to let it do its thing before applying power. cold water, hot water, does not matter. Keep it away from aluminum.
 

 


I was wanting to tell you a few things I have found.
By using a "1" inch solid bar as the negative this helps keep the cell at a steady temp of 80-90 degrees. this is after a 3-4 hour constant feed. So am I correct in saying that I now can lose the PWM...?

 


I have been having trouble finding a good electrolyte that will produce a good quantity of Hydrogen without the brown scum (mud). Do you know what this brown mud actually is? I use about a 1/4 teaspoon of sea salt in the water I've been using and the unit chokes itself off within an hour. Heats up like crazy and I chicken out and shut it off before a meltdown. I was just going to try adding some Sodium Hydroxide to the electrolyte to see how that works for me. 

You are discovering the nasty brown scum that salt and vinegar produce. Salt is especially bad. Salt can also be dangerous. As your water evaporates and or gets electrolyzed into HHO, the salt concentration increases. That means your water conducts electricity better, which means current/amps is going to increase, which means the water temperature is going to increase, which makes the water conduct even better. Eventually salt will cause lightening strikes in the water. That could be dangerous. A friend of mine learned the hard way. His cell blew up on him. It just all of a sudden exploded. The lid buried itself in his ceiling. Other than making a mess, that was the only damage to the house.
 
Sodium Hydroxide is a much better choice of electrolytes. Just add a very small amount at a time, measuring the amperage as you go. Just add it to tap water. The sodium puts off a small amount of fumes when it is dissolving. Keep your nose away from it. One more caution, Sodium Hydroxide will dissolve aluminum. It will turn it into pure hydrogen gas.
 
I am in the process of building information about electrolytes. Their purpose is to make the water more conductive. Water has a lot of resistance as an insulator; believe it or not. Pure water is an insulator, but pure water is rare. If you want to run your cell on just water, then the spacing of the plates needs to be very close (less resistance).

 


Just one question how does the installation of your products affect the warranty of my car?

That is a question you can Ask your dealer. While you are at it, ask them why they can't produce a more fuel efficient vehicle, and do so at a reasonable price tag. I can tell you that I do believe HHO is considered an additive. The manufacturer can not void your warranty unless they can prove the additive caused the problem. Search that on the web. You will probably find the question asked in forums.

 .


Hi I have a question, would having more than one smaller hydrogen generator running say 6-8 AMPS each that work with the accelerator. for instance having say 4 generators under the bonnet and at full throttle all 4 work but at idol only 1 and so on. Cutting power to the unneeded ones. Of course I need to find out when they need to cut in and out, but in theory 4 smaller ones would probably take more AMPS but who drives with there car at full throttle? The idea is to basically get around some cars that can't run a 25 amp generator all the time but if needed can if given the boot. Hopefully eliminating the need to add another generator/alternator. I want to run my car off of 99% HHO because that 1% fuel is needed to lubricate (Well there abouts that would have to be trial and error).

I understand you wanting to run multiple cells. Many are doing it. Turning them on and off, at will, well that can be done too. However, a PWM could handle that. PWM's pulse the DC voltage. They are controlled by a rheostat (volume control) hee hee. Actually, they turn the voltage up and down. The higher the voltage, the more HHO you will make. Where am I going with this,  well, they make a manual rheostat that can be peddle operated. They are used on electric cars. I think that could easily be connected to your accelerator peddle. Does that sound fully automatic :) just a thought.
 
I run my cell on my vehicle, daily. I went from 24 miles per gallon to 35. That is 45% increase. One liter of HHO gas per minute makes a difference. Two liters makes a difference on the highway. The more HHO you make, the more it is going to affect the timing on your motor. HHO flashes at 3,500 feet per second; really fast. If the concentration is high enough, you will need to put spark to your motor - after - top dead center, or it will drive your pistons backwards.

 


Can you tell me why u are using a 80 amp breaker if your actuator wont handle 80 amps why are you using it ??

I had a 55 amp alternator. Now I have a 105 amp. I am protecting my PWM, and My relay. The Battery is capable of a lot more than 80 amps. I am not worried about protecting my alternator. I monitor my battery voltage.

Lets see, a year and a half, with no problems. Hmmm. Must not be doing something to harm my alternator. Having the capability of using 80 amps and using 80 amps are two different things. However, I have used 80 amps with the motor turned off. Of course, my circuit breaker kicked off.

If you are worried about your alternator, you will find it is engineered for a lot more than what the amp rating states.

 


Once again I'm a bit confused....it figures!

I just went to Tennesse then over to N. Carolina on vacation and arriving back home in Florida last night. I have been steadily using mothballs for about 3 months. I can do the same exact drive. With everything exactly the same. One time I will get 31.5 mpg. The next time I will get 20.9 mpg. The next 24.6. So on and so forth.

It really is frustrating. Yesterday on the first leg of my drive I got 29.5 Mpg for the first 3.8 gallons. We stopped at a store. I filled up the 3.8 gallons and added a mothball. The next stop was about 117 miles later. I don't remember exactly how much I pumped, but I only was getting 20 mpg. I was driving exactly the same. It pisses me off. I have tried to see if Ethanol/ no Ethanol changes it. Pretty much any variable I can think of.

Do you think it might be my EFI System or my O2 sensor? The van is running perfectly. So, I have no idea.

 

I will tell you what I know:

Gasoline quality varies from station to station, company to company. You can't get good mileage on bad gas.

Pump pressure and pump speed varies from station to station. So what are your habits for pumping? Do you consistently apply the same amount of fuel pump rate; especially when the tank is close to full? Or do you just turn it on wide open and when it clicks off it is full.

You are attempting to top-off your tank - not use most of the gas you have in your tank. You will never get consistent figures - that way - unless you use the same exact pump, parked in nearly the exact same spot. Why! Because your vehicle is rarely level at the pump. One station fill up, has your vehicle front end facing uphill, another has it down hill, another has it leaning to the left or leaning to the right. What do you think that does to your gas tank? Think maybe you could put more gas in one way, and less in another way? That would give you high mpg one time and low another time.

Then bring on the mothballs you add to the new fuel you topped off with. Your fuel mixture is diluted for the next hour, while they dissolve.

Now bring on the Ethanol. It lowers MPG. The stations don't have to label the pumps any longer, if they have ethanol. Thanks to Pres. Bush.

So from what I have said, what are you doing right?

I track my mileage too, but I use the same gas station, the same pump, parked in the same spot, facing the same direction. Close to the end of the fueling, I slow the pump down so that the tenths of a gallon pass - one per second. When the pump clicks off, I'm done. It is either do it that way, or fill it to the neck, jump up and down on the bumper, fill it some more.

 


I purchased 2 pwm 30 a and both have blown capacitor c-2 within 10 min at 13.2 amps. Do you have any suggestions as to why. I wired it with a 50 amp shunt power from the battery to the volts in on the pwm from the load positive to the shunt from the shunt to the cell neg load to the cell and ov to the neg on the battery. works great have control for about 10 min then pop c-2 blows up. thanks for any input here .


 

Are the PWM's rated 30 amps continuous or 30 amps peak?
Continuous means it can be run wide open, at 30 amps, continuously. That is the only kind to use. 30 amps peak - will burn up past 30 amps.

Your shunt is a measuring tool. It connects to the positive wire - somewhere between the battery and the positive of the cell. Anywhere in between there. If it is between the battery and the PWM, it measures the current being drawn by the PWM and the cell. If it is between the PWM and the cell, it measures the current being drawn only by the cell. The shunt has an input and an output screw for the positive wire. That would blow your battery up. I have trouble interpreting what you wrote about the shunt, because of your punctuation. It is not clear. Positive and Negative never ever both get put on the shunt. The shunt can put in line - with either positive - or negative - but not both.

You mention 13.2 amps. That means you are using a Digital Amp meter. Is this one you installed on the shunt?

Does this PWM have a heat sink? It better. Is it a kit or was it assembled? I am assuming it was assembled. The Capacitor you mention, C, protects the mosfet transistor from overloading.

Since the PWM works for ten minutes or so, and the amperage is not getting "over" 13.2 volts, I would think the PWM is rated at 30 amps PEAK. Check with the manufacturer/seller on this. They will probably supply a new capacitor or PWM if everything is as you say it is.

You can also consult with madscientist67. He may have a solution for you, but please give more direct details.

As an example, I use an 80 amp PWM that is rated "continuous load". It can handle 160 amps PEAK, and 120 amps for 10 seconds.
 


I am from Malysia, just now I am trying to build my one HHO. when I buy from someone on ebay like water4gas in jar. it not produce more HHO. I can't see the output when I take the output from first jar to second jar.. no . HHO buble in second jar. but I see HHO produce in first Jar.a litter until 15 amp still no buble in second jar.

Beouse of this . I create my  own  HHO generator.

I use Hot water stanles steal termos become thier container.
1) the center is Negatif > Neutral> Positif>Negatif for container.( all stanles steal 304)
2) I use Soda baking  (Pure). with 1 tea spoon.
3) when power on the system I see more HHO.. buble in this container
.
But I see More like Smoke ( what is that it is HHO) The curent is 11Amp. I use Car batery  I bring in to my Home.
4) when I close the top container and try to masure output in seconds jar. I don't see anything Buble come out in second jar when I put the output HHO from first jar to in water in second jar..
 I use tube pneumatik air cable . I see the smoke come out from the tube  pneumatik air cable but when i insert the output cable to in water at second jar I don see any buble com out. 
Why this happen?.
5) after that I take out the tube from water ( second jar) and i see the smoke come out from the tube.

I do this experiment in my toilet becouse I dont have space in my home.

from that I want to try make a welding gas. I close the toilet and take the tube come out from the
toilet/and close the tilet door and i  still see smoke at output tube at my hand . I take the liter  and I fire it.?  do you know what happen.?

I am very shock. after I turn on the fire from liter to ouput tube have a smoke .. In 1 second I hear sound like BOM..when I open the toilet . I see the container is explode. my meter amp is damege. my toilet door is damage in inside toilet.

very power full BOM hidrogen.
why this happen ? How to mesure correct HHO?
 

Answer:

Oh My GOD,
I , hee hee hee, laugh my arse off,
So did my wife.
So sorry - but - funny!
 
Man, you learned a lesson. HHO is very Explosive.
Hydrogen will burn. Oxygen will cause everything around it to burn. Mix together and you have a Bomb. K-A-BOOM !
HHHO flash rate is 3,500 feet per second; very Fast.
 
To fix the problem:
You have a leak in your containers. HHO is escaping (getting out)
After closing your lid, always blow thru tube to make sure there is pressure.
Blow hard. Air should stop fast. It will stop if there is no leak.
Fix leak, then test again.
 
Also - test second jar. Make certain the lid works. It must seal. It must not leak . All HHO must escape thru the output hose.
Final test. Connect cell to second jar. Blow into second jar output port. Blow air into jar. It should seal and cell should seal. If not, you have a leak.
 
Keep lighter (liter) in your pocket   :)

 


So with tubes you canít do it because the surface area changes and each different tube would receive different amounts of amperage? Why do you prefer tube to plate cells? Less magnetic alignment work? Whats the point of a DC inverter if your converting DC > AC > DC? Does this Bob Boyce method of sealing the different waterways, when done correctly, actually produce 6x the HHO?

 

You can do it with the tubes but it is not very effective. It would be better to do a Myers type tube cell, using multiple sets of tubes. The tubes would have to be wired in "Series", the same way the plates are wired. Myers did not do that. He wired his tubes in parallel. The longer the tubes, the more surface area.
 
Why do I prefer tubes? I don't necessarily prefer tubes. I just use them. In the beginning, my tube set up made it easy to change configurations without taking a lot of bolts and gaskets appart.
 
What is the point of a DC inverter?
The point is to make higher DC voltage, without adding heavy batteries - that have to be charged.
12 volts DC is inverted to 110 volts AC, that is then rectified back to 110 volts DC. Higher voltage allows us to use more plates in Series. Each set of plates makes more gas from the existing amperage passing through the stack.
 
Actually Bob Boyce's method of connecting the cells, was Yule Brown's method; actually it goes back even farther to 1919. That is about when the first Dry Cell was built. The theory is that each neutral plate has a more positive side and a more negative side. Even though DC is not directly applied to either side. Hydrogen is attracted to the Negative plates and Oxygen is attracted to the Positive plates. More plates means more surface area for HHO to be produced on. By creating a Series circuit, positive on one end of the cell and negative on the other end, the same amount of current (electrons) flows over each neutral plate. It has been determined that 1.25 to 2 volts is the ideal voltage for producing HHO. As voltage is increased above 2 volts, Heat becomes the predominant output along with HHO. The higher the voltage across each water way, the more heat. 12 volts across a water way (water between 2 plates) produces a lot of excess heat. If you are not using Neutrals, you have 12 volts across each water way. Neutrals actually divide the voltage. We call that a voltage drop. So, a cell with one neutral would measure 6 volts from positive to the neutral, and 6 volts from the negative to the neutral. If we added a second neutral, the voltage drop would change. Divide the number of water areas, into the applied voltage. That is 12 divided by 3 = 4. 4 volts per water area. You would measure 4 volts from one neutral to the other neutral.
 
With the above information in mind, now you should be able to understand what Bob and Yule were doing. They were increasing water compartments by adding Neutrals, and lowering voltage to each set of plates. They needed higher voltage to do that and keep the plate voltages at 1.25 to 2 volts. 6 times the amount of gas comes from having 6 times the number of water compartments, with the same amperage flowing through each compartment.

 

 

 


I'm out in the California Lancaster area and gas here is $4.60.
Ozzie Freedom is down the hill in Tujunga and has a Saturday morning car get together with working water4gas electrolysors installed. I've been taking notes and lots of research.  I'll be contacting you again.  I like your design and wondering what you know about the Pulse Generator Stanley Meyer used and it's efficiency.

 

The pulse generator that Stan used is something he built.
Basically, it was a PWM, pulse width modulator that pulsed the DC voltage to the cell.
He took that a step farther, he also hit the cell with the break down frequency for Hydrogen, and the breakdown frequency for water.
But I have news for you. He was not running his Dune Buggy using Electrolysis.
He started out that way, but changed course. He used high voltage and high current to create a plasma spark that would ignite water mist. He built a water injector system that replaced each sparkplug, the inject screwed into the spark plug hole. He misted the water into the cylinder and fired it with the plasma spark.
 
So don't get hung up on building special circuits to do what Myers did.
If you want to do Electrolysis, use a PWM. They are inexpensive, and easy to find on ebay.
 
Next, get yourself a COSM or EFIE circuit for your Oxygen Sensor. That fools the computer into thinking it is sending too rich a gas mixture.
 
Use the HHO as an additive to improve the burning of your gasoline. Or use additives. Both do the same thing, but HHO has the potential to add fuel where the additives can only increase the burning of the gasoline.
 
Don't get hung up on using gimmicks for cell designs. Think safety.
Glass will blow up, plastic will melt, keep that in mind and build safety around their use.
I use stainless steel, because it is safer, and it will take a lickin and keep on tickin.

 

 


I would really like to know your thoughts/ experience about the difference between the configuration +NN-NN+ & +-+-+-+- ??
the latter seems to generate more HHO lpm but draws more amps, is that right or whats the story?

 

 

Alternating +-+- is a parallel circuit. Each positive is wired to the 12 volt positive of your battery. Each negative is wired to the 12 volt negative of your battery. 12 volts can be measured between any two plates that are facing each other. In other words, 12 volts is dropped across each set of plates. As for the current (amps), if 10 amps of current is being drawn by the cell, and you have two sets of plates, there would be 5 amps of current going through each set of plates. The current is divided. However, close observation of + - + - shows three water areas + space - space + space - I represented "space" as the water areas. Current would be traveling in 3 parts, thus divided 3 times. So, you have 12 volts applied to each set of plates, but only 3.333 amps of current available to each set. That is a parallel arrangement.

When Neutrals are introduced + space N space N space - The same amount of current travels through each water area. Voltage is applied to only the end plates positive and negative. The neutral plates actually cause a voltage drop and a current drop. Each neutral cuts the applied voltage in half. In a 12 volt system, using this configuration of two neutrals, the voltage drop between two adjacent plates would be 4 volts. You have 3 water areas, 12 volts divided by 3 equals 4 volts. Don't take my word for it, go measure it. It will be there.

In effect, Neutrals drop the voltage to the plates. Lower voltage means less heat. Ideally 1.25 volts is capable of making the most HHO with the least amount of heat ratio. Each Neutral plate has a positive side and a negative, or should I say a more positive side and a more negative side. That is why you can measure a voltage drop between them.

Using Neutrals creates a Series circuit. +nn-
The following would be a Series Parallel circuit: +NN-NN+
We have 12 volts applied to two plates. Negative is applied to one plate, That is a parallel arrangement. However there are Neutrals in series between each positive and negative. Thus series parallel.

What does all of this mean! It is all brute force electrolysis. But neutrals allow you to lower the voltage to each plate yet have the same amount of current passing through each plate. The neutrals can provide additional surface area for HHO production as well as lower the heat. It can do so with less current. But there is a trick to it. You must keep the water from leaking between the plates. You have to seal the bottom and the sides so that current can not find its way around or under the plates. That is Yule Browns theory, which is also used by Bob Boyce.

Ohms Law states:
Current flow, in an electrical circuit, is Directly proportional to the applied voltage and Inversely proportional to the circuit resistance; as long as Resistance remains the same. That means, If voltage increases, current flow will increase; as long as Resistance remains the same. If Voltage decreases, current flow will decrease; as long as resistance remains the same.

In our cell technology, the water is our resistance. It directly determines how many amps of current our cell will draw. The closer our plates are, the less water there is between them; the lower our resistance will be. The hotter our water is, the less resistance there will be. The more electrolytes we add, the less resistance there will be.

This either answers your question, or confuses the heck out of you.
 


This is the best and most truthful site I have been to, by far!!!!  Everything looks great. I see you have one of your HHO devices on your car with all the dashboard controls. Very nice!!!! Could or would you tell me how much of a gas savings you are getting. I am thinking of making my lawn mower run on Hydrogen," to start with " and was wondering if one of these cells would produce enough Hydrogen to power it. I know you must be very busy and may not be able to get back with me, but thank you for this web site and I will be watching and learning.
 
Thank you for the kinds words. They are appreciated.
 
As for your lawn mower, I doubt you will be able to run it totally off of HHO.
You need to be able to make lot of amps - in order to make a lot of HHO.
 
My 1.6 liter engine would need 65 to 85 liters a minute to operate on nothing but HHO.
For that reason, I use HHO to "Assist" with the burning of my gasoline.
Up to 80% of your fuel goes out your exhaust manifold and is then eaten by the catalytic converter. This is by design. The idea is to make you buy more fuel, more often. No if, and, or buts. Oil companies add heavy additives that keep your gasoline from atomizing when it is sprayed or injected. Gasoline does not burn - in liquid form. The combustion chamber only burns the vapor. The hot exhaust causes the liquid fuel to atomize; it is then sent to the catalytic converter - which is able to burn up the atomized fuel. This is absurd.
 
Now introduce HHO, a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. The flash rate is 3,500 feet per second. When ignited, it causes any fuel around it to burn up; any fuel. If the fuel is burned in the combustion chamber, you get the benefit of better efficiency. The motor uses the fuel instead of atomizing the fuel for the catalytic converter / and the oil companies. The environment wins - because the exhaust is fresh. You win because your engine runs cooler; oil changes last longer. Will you get better gas mileage. Maybe yes, maybe no. It all depends on your vehicles ECM (computer). The ECM has several sensors that it monitors. Its job is to maintain a fuel mixture of 14.7 parts air to 1 part gasoline. That - is a rich mixture. The riches mixture of any country in the world. This is by design; mandated by the government; to make you buy more gasoline. Other countries use 20 parts air to 1 part gasoline. The better the fuel is atomized, the higher the air content can be in order to burn all of the gasoline. Richard Krupa has proved the combustion engine can be run using 40 parts air to one part gasoline.
 
So how do you over come the ECM? Do that with an EFIE circuit. An EFIE circuit takes the Oxygen sensor voltage and adds a small amount to it. Then sends that higher voltage to the ECM. The ECM sees the slightly higher voltage and determines the fuel mixture is too rich, so it backs off on the gasoline. This increases the air ratio to the fuel mixture. This gets you better gas mileage. If your motor does not have a computer, then you do not have to concern yourself with an EFIE.

 


I see on your web site under Sodium Hydroxide your claim of 30% more HHO than baking soda; is that with the same energy draw? I mean if I'm feeding my cell 20 amps with BS, will I get 30% more still feeding 20 amps? Is this what you're using; it's kind of a nasty liquid so I kind of cringe at the though of using it plus I have a little concern about Sodium Hydroxide getting into my intake system and corroding parts.
 

Answer:
Baking Soda reaches a point where it will not conduct any better no matter how much you add. It does so very quickly. It is especially noticeable in cold water. I switched to it because of the fumes Sodium Hydroxide caused. It seemed to work just as good. Then I started having problems with things stopping up. Several times, I had to clean the valve I use to control the vacuum in my cell. It kept stopping up and blowing the gas tube off my cell. That in turn spewed water all over every thing. That water dried and left white stuff; Baking Soda. I switched back to Sodium Hydroxide and noticed an increase in HHO production; seemed like maybe 30 % more. This was a visual observation, not a measured one. You are welcome to measure the difference. I am satisfied to accept what I saw.

I no longer use Baking Soda because it will clog a Flash Arrestor when it dries out. It will clog any valve the HHO passes through. This is not good.

I do not use Sodium Hydroxide any longer, because it produces fumes that are harmful to breath. They seem to affect memory brain cells. The fumes will take your breath. The liquid is caustic but I have not had any skin irritations or burns from it.

I now use KOH, Potassium Hydroxide, the most caustic of the 3 electrolytes I have mentioned. It takes very little to make the water conduct. It is more expensive but worth the investment to me. In pure form, it will eat a hole in your skin. So keep it in a dry place; out of reach from kids and pets. In the diluted concentrations I use, I have had no problems with it. I wash my hands after handling the water. Have never had a skin irritation from it; never a sign of burning. It is the best of the electrolytes, but it must be respected.

As for corroding engine parts, I have not had any problems. I have an aluminum head and block. The caustics will eat aluminum if the concentrations are high enough. I have tested my water by placing an aluminum tube in it. It does give off hydrogen bubbles, but they are very few; so I am not alarmed. Now if my cell produced Foam, and that foam went down my engine all the time, I would be most alarmed. But that is not my case. My cell does not produce foam; nor does anyone else's that has built my cell and followed my instructions on aligning the tubes magnetically.

If you have foam, you will need a Bubbler. The bubbler will wash the electrolyte off of the bubble membrane as the gases rise through the bubbler's water. That is, if the water in the bubbler does not contain electrolytes. Does that make sense? If your cell is using a lot of water, that is a sure sign you are making a lot of foam and that foam is getting into your engine. I don't know if this is your case, I am just talking in general.

If you use very close spacing, and heat your water, you will not need any electrolytes. But still, you will need a PWM to control the amperage. Electrolysis output is all about making the water conduct better; through heat and or electrolytes.
 


I'm in Vermont, am a plumber, and like the idea of running a car on water. I built a coupla electrode cells, and kept melting 'em down / shorting out (too much powder) etc, so I am doing a plate system soon. and or a joe cell. Where did you get the "cap" for your cell? I just got a MAP sensor, getting a scanjet, got a o2 sensor fooler coming etc. From ebay. I am very close to buying an H2O 2000 water torch, a propane kit, and a 220 volt inverter from 12 volt dc, and build a car that uses totally water. I KNOW it will work, it has to, that torch gives from 0 - like 1200 litres a minute on demand. (from what I see) From the cars I see online, that's pretty much what they are running. The torch is almost 7 thousand, but I spend that a year in gasoline between me and my wife. I figger if I wait for big business - ford gmc etc to "come out with one" while "corporate" figgers out how much to stuff it up you know where for a price, I could be running a car for free in a year, on water. What do you think??? swap emails?
 

I think you will have a problem powering a 220 volt Inverter. It will take a lot of amps from your alternator to produce 220 volts. First find out how many amps it takes to run your water torch at the liter output you want to use. Then find an inverter that can put out that much amperage continuously. There are some good inverters on the market now days, that operate from 80% to 90% efficiency.

Here is a configuration that will run your car 100%, if you can make the amperage.

220 VDC, 101 Plates.... 12 in x 12 in, 78 Amps = 81 LPM (that is the maximum amperage for 12x12 inch plates.


 


Hi I been working hard on my system you have been a lot of help ,I'm wondering there is a sight that was saying that if to much HHO is put in a system that you would have to every two months have to bore you engine out or are they just washed up ! Because my system will be a big one ,or are there things that can be done to prevent the rusting ,see I do not run my system throw a bubbler ,for I believe the engine like a little moister, my fire suppressor is one of the best you can make with one front and at the intake ! just want to get your take on this!
 

Well, partner, I have been running HHO for over a year and a half. I have run a lot of hydrogen through my motor. I have not bored it out yet. Hydrogen does not eat up the metal. It does not rust the metal. The water vapor that the cell puts out gets burned in the motor. It does not cause rust. I think they are full of doo doo. Our motors burn water when they burn gasoline; always have.

I have an aluminum motor. I have had no problems. I don't use a bubbler. I don't use a flashback arrestor. Never have had a need for either. My cell is constructed of stainless steel. It takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.

Keep on doing your thing. You are making progress.
 

 


I built one of the victor hho generators, it is a water filter with ten plates in and they are correctly spaced apart with rubber washers and everything, ive used both lye and baking soda with water, my system is set up P-n-n-N-n-n-P-n-n-N, when i hook up the system and turn it on the wires get hot, but only one of the terminals gets hot whether you hook positive or ground to it, do you know what this could be?? i used a 20 amp fuse and blew it, went to a 30 and havent blew it yet, any suggestions???
 
From what you have told me, I would say you do not know how many amps your cell is drawing.
You don't know because you don't have an amp meter. Get one! You need one. You blew the 20 amp fuse because your cell exceeded 20 amps.
 
Heat is caused by movement/friction. In your case, it is the movement of the negative electrons being attracted to the positive plates. The more electrolytes you put in your water, the higher the amps your cell is going to draw. Electrolytes make the water conduct electricity better by lowering resistance. When resistance decreases, current increases and causes the water to heat up - which causes less resistance - which causes more current (amps). You have a vicious cycle of increased current going on. It will continue to climb the longer you run your cell. Your wires are getting overloaded because they are too small to handle the load. They need more surface area for the current to travel on. Too much traffic and not enough road. Make sure you are using stranded wire. You need at least number 10 or Number 12 will work below 20 amps. You will need number 6 or 8 if you run 50 amps. An easy test is to double up the wire. Use two positives and two negatives. If the wires cool down but the terminal still gets hot, you have a poor connection on your terminal. From what you told me, you have a poor connection on one of your terminals. Heat collects where there is resistance. The hottest spot is the culprit causing the heat. It could be a bad weld; a loose connection; a dirty connection; a poor wire crimp; things like that; even a loose nut/bolt.
 
According to your cell configuration, your current is being divided into 3 equal paths. That means that each set of +nn-  is drawing one third of your current. It is like taking a water hose and connecting 3 hoses on one end. The water coming out of the faucet is divided equally into the other 3 hoses. If the cell was drawing 21 amps, 7 amps would be drawn across each set of plates. Their combined total equals your total amp draw.
 
Hope this info helps

 


I finally got my pwm and am in the process of installation but I have a doubt that i thought you might be able to clarify. Regarding the negative terminal that goes into the PWM from the vehicle ground, are there any negative effects that you know of from connecting that negative lead the the vehicle common ground rather than straight to the battery's negative pole?? will there be any adverse effects to my vehicle if i don't connect it straight to the battery's negative pole?
 

The Negative Wire that feeds power to the PWM, or to the cell for that matter, should be connected directly to the Battery. I know, I learned the hard way. Electrons flow from negative to positive. They travel on the surface of the wire, or in this case the surface of the chassis. All is well and good --- that is --- until the snow flies, and the roads get salted. Did I say salt? You bet. Salt is an Electrolyte. It increases conductivity. It also speeds up the Rust process. Yep - Rust. So now you have current for your cell - traveling through your chassis and body parts - and those parts are not Stainless Steel. Mr. Rust is going to show up early. He paid me a visit. My quarter panels are G O N E. Eaten away by rust. It happened quick.

So take heed --- Run wires directly from the Battery; don't use the chassis ground.

Another precaution concerns the PWM. A PWM uses an Isolated Ground or Negative Feed to the cell. That simply means - the Motor Negative output of the PWM can not come in contact with the Chassis Ground. It will not harm anything if it does touch, but it will keep you from adjusting the voltage (controlling the current). Battery negative wires up to the PWM negative. The cell negative wires up to the PWM motor negative. At least, that is the way mine have worked. I have had two different kinds; both wired the same way.
 

 
 
 


 

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